Debate 028: Scott tries to prove the Bible

Scott sent this email to any Atheist that he could. Most people deleted it, but a few responded. I decided to take the time to break Scott’s “proof” down and show it to be not only flawed and fallacious, but downright silly. I didn’t expect a response back from Scott, and I didn’t get one. However, I wanted to share with readers this email because Scott is not the originator – he’s the messenger. I don’t know who created the “proof” list, but it certainly gets around. If you get it in your inbox, please feel free to reply with my rebuttal, just make sure you give proper credit.

 

Scott’s “Proof of the Bible”:

PROOF OF THE BIBLE

Part I: Bible Prophecy

Reason For Prophecy

History was in part recorded thousands of years in advance so that people can become aware of solid evidence of the truth that is more convincing than someone rising from the dead to warn about eternity (Luke 16:31).

Isaiah 46:8-10 “Remember this, and be assured…I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things which have not been done…” Rev. 19:10 tells us, “…the testimony of Jesus is the spirit (purpose) of prophecy.”

Prophecy Of The Last Days

Daniel 12:4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the time of the end; many will go (travel) back and forth, and knowledge will greatly increase.” Increased travel and knowledge are now very evident.

Prophecy so true today is in 2nd Tim. 3:1,13. “…in the last days…evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.”

The Bible foretold that in the end times Jewish people would return to the land of Israel, which became once again established as a nation in 1948 following the Holocaust of World War II. In Ezekiel 38:8 we can read, “…in the latter years…the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste…”

Mt. 24:3-14 “As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, ‘Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?’ And Jesus answered and said to them, ‘See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, “I am the Christ,” and will mislead many. You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes (Lk. 21:11 also adds plagues). But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs (which increase in frequency and intensity as birth approaches). Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.”

Nuclear weaponry was prophesied in Rev. 6:14 “The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up (mushroom cloud), and every mountain and island were moved…”

Global TV was suggested to exist at the end in Rev. 1:7 and 11:8-9. AIDS was fortold in Rom. 1:27.

Many have laughed at the Bible in modern times, as was foretold in 2nd Peter 3:3-4

“Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, ‘Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.'”

False Christianity of today (practiced by many) is clearly found in prophecy in such places as Jer. 23:16-22,35-36 ; 2nd Tim. 3:1-9 and 4:3 ; and 2nd Peter 2:1-3. Prophet in the Old Testament generally meant a religious speaker, and prophesy, to speak on religious matters.

Prophecy About Messiah And Its Fulfillment

  • *Mic. 5:1-2 would be from Bethlehem–Mt.2:1
  • *Hos. 11:1 would be called out of Egypt — Mt. 2:13-15
  • *Is. 40:3 ; Mal. 3:1 would be preceded by a messenger — Mt.3:1-3 ; Mk.1:2-4
  • *Is. 42:1 would have Spirit of God — Jn. 1:32
  • *Ps. 69:9 zeal would consume him–Jn 2:15-17
  • *Is. 32:3-4 would heal every kind of disease — Mt. 9:35 ; 15:30-31
  • *Is. 53:3 would be rejected — Jn. 1:11 ; 7:47-48 ; 12:37
  • *Is. 53:7 would be silent when oppressed — Mt. 27:12-14 ; Lk. 23:7-10
  • *Is. 50:6 ; Mic. 5:1 would be struck in the face, spit upon, and whipped — Mt. 26:67 ; Mk. 15:15 ; Lk. 22:63-64
  • *Dan. 9:26 would be killed — Mt. 27:38,50
  • *Is. 53:8-12 would die for sins of others–Jn. 1:29 ; 11:49-52
  • *Is. 53:12 would be numbered with transgressors — Mk. 15:27-28 ; Lk. 22:37
  • *Is. 53:9 would be with a rich man in death — Mt. 27:57-60
  • *Ps. 16:10 his body would not decay–Mk.16:6

Part II: Advanced Scientific Knowledge In The Bible

On Physical Science

The universe is expanding. Job 9:8 ; Ps. 104:2 ; Is. 40:22 ; 44:24 ; 51:13.

The nuclear strong force is explained in Col. 1:17 and Heb. 1:3.

Human DNA is much like that of grass (and other living things). Is. 51:12 “…man…is made like grass…”

Only in the past 30 years or so has it been known that there are springs at the bottoms of the oceans. Job 38:16 told of this.

On Health Science

Gen. 1:29-30 shows that God’s original diet for people was vegetarian, now known to be beneficial. In line with this, God told Moses that the Jews were not to eat fat (Lv. 3:17). And they were not to eat those meats now known more unhealthy (Lv. 11:1-47 and Dt. 14:3-20).

The Jews were directed in sanitation and quarantine, although germs were not discovered until around 1890. Lv. 6:28 ; 13:45-59 ; 15:1-13.

Part III: Archaeology Has Proven The Bible

Much evidence has been found by archaeologists that supports the accounts written in The Bible. For example, Noah’s Ark has been discovered (Gen. chapters 6 through 8). You can see pictures of the ark and documentation in the book The Lost Ship Of Noah… by Charles Berlitz. Remains of one of the cities destroyed by fire and brimstone in Gen. 18:20 through 19:28 have been found– ashes and soot in the forms of buildings. Also chariot wheels and parts have been found at the bottom of The Red Sea (Exodus 14). The latter items are in materials by Dr. John Morris of The Institute For Creation Research.

Part IV: Suggested Info.

OT Verses

*Gen. 19:1-29 *Dt. 18:10-12 ; Lv. 20:6,27 ; Is. 47:11-15 *Dt. chapter 28 *1st Sam. 15:22-23 *Pr. 16:18 *Ps. 51:17 ; 34:19 ; 111:10 *Is. 5:14,20-22 ; chap. 55 ; 57:15 *Jer. 8:4 ; 31:21 *Mic. 6:8

NT Verses (Some OT)

*Mt. chapters 7 , 13 , and 25*Mt. 5:7 ; 9:13 ; see Hos. 6:6 *Mt. 5:6:25-34 *Mt. 6:14-15 ; 9:13 ; 18:1-7 ; 19:29-30 ; 22:35-40 *Mt.23:13,15,24,33 ; 28:18-20 *Mk. 16:16-18 *Lk. 6:46 ; 21:34-36 *Jn. 8:24 ; 14:16,21,26 ; 16:7 *Ac. 5:32 ; Heb. 5:9 *Ro. 10:17 ; 11:21-22 ;13:8-10 *1st Jn. 1:9 ; 2:3-5,29 ; 3:15,17,24 ; 5:3 *1st Cor. 6:9-10 ; 10:1-14 ; 12:1-11 *Gal. 5:13-23 *Eph. 2:8-9 ; 5:5-6 *2nd Thess. 1:7-10 *Titus 1:16 *1st Tim. 1:6-10 ; 4:1-4 ; 6:3-5 *2nd Tim. 2:14-26 *Heb. 6:4-8 ; 10:26-31,36-39 ; chap. 11 ; 12:14 *James 2:13-26 *1st Pet. 1:15-16 ; 5:5-10 *2nd Peter *Jude *Rev. 2:21-23 ; 3:1 ; 16:15 ; 20:11-15 ; chaps. 21 and 22

Rev. 9:21 predicted drug abuse in the end times. The word sorceries there is English for the Greek word pharmakeia, which also translates as pharmacy. (Notice how similar.)

The same word is translated as witchcraft in Gal. 5:20, and verses 19-21 reveal what God thinks about doing such things.

On abortion: About John The Baptist, Lk. 1:15 told “…he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb.” Then consider Jer. 1:4-5 “Now the word of the LORD came to me saying, ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you…”‘

About the marks of the beast and related info: read Rev. 13:16-18 ; 14:9-12 ; and 20:4. The only escape from that time of testing (see Rev. 3:10) besides passing on before it arrives is the rapture, found in Zeph. 2:3 ; 1st Cor. 15:50-52; and 1st Thess. 4:15-17.

Concerning learning to live the Christian life: You should not trust ministers or church people to give you sound Biblical advice and instruction. Many of them are very deceived, as you can plainly see if you carefully examine the verses mentioned in this writing. You need to study The Bible yourself. And every believer is to be baptized, if they have not been, in keeping with Mk. 16:16.

I Recommend:

*The book The Late Great Planet Earth and the video Evidences Of The End Time, both on Bible prophecy, by Hal Lindsey. *The book and tape, Dreams And Visions From God, by Dumitru Duduman — address Hand Of Help, 1012 S 3rd St, Watertown WI 53094. *Two books by Mary Baxter. A Divine Revelation Of Hell (partly also on tape), and A Divine Revelation Of Heaven. These are about tours of hell and heaven Jesus took her on. *Books, etc., by Kenneth Hagin. *The book We Saw Heaven, by Roberts Liardon. *The Bible on tape, CD, and DVD.

This may freely be copied, put in other forms and mediums, translated, and distributed.

 

Response to Scott’s “Proof”:

Thank you for sending your “proof of the Bible” to Atheism Awareness. Please allow me to completely dismantle your so-called proof…

PROOFS: “History was in part recorded thousands of years in advance so that people can become aware of solid evidence of the truth that is more convincing than someone rising from the dead to warn about eternity (Luke 16:31).”

You are right that someone rising from the dead to warn about eternity is not that convincing. There have been many resurrected gods throughout human history – Jesus is not a unique claim when it comes to resurrection.

Luke 16:31 states, “And he said unto him, if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”

Of course this isn’t a prophecy at all, since an unknown author wrote Luke after the fact. You can’t write something after it happens and call it prophecy.

PROOFS: “Daniel 12:4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the time of the end; many will go (travel) back and forth, and knowledge will greatly increase.” Increased travel and knowledge are now very evident.”

This is not a prophecy; it is a general statement that apologists have placed their own views upon in order to make it fit their distorted view.

Increased knowledge and travel became available long before now from the time this was written. This statement could be applied to any era after the book of Daniel was written. What about when the “horseless carriage” was invented – were the Christians of the time insisting that it was the end of times? What happened when the steam ship was invented or airplanes? What happened at the dawn of the Space Age? To say that this statement refers to this time is absolutely ridiculous, at best. What if it is describing when we venture into space and go beyond our solar system?

Of course if you read chapter 12 of Daniel in its entirety, and you consider it to be prophecy, then it is failed prophecy. Daniel 12:12 states, “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.” This means that Daniel and those in the river around him thought the end times were coming 1,335 days later, which is roughly 3.6 years later. That never happened, so if you consider Daniel to be a prophet, then you must consider him to be a failed prophet or a charlatan.

PROOFS: “Prophecy so true today is in 2nd Tim. 3:1,13. “…in the last days…evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.”

You mention this as if skepticism and non-belief are a new phenomenon. Every religion ever conceived by man, including Christianity, has made statements to this effect – that people will scoff and not believe the followers of the religion. The entire third chapter of II Timothy is nothing but a diatribe against those that refuse to believe in Jesus. It is certainly not prophecy.

Did Timothy mean when the Romans scoffed and persecuted Christians? Did Timothy mean when the Ottoman Empire encroached upon Christian villages across southern Europe? Did Timothy mean when Stalin killed millions? Perhaps Timothy was referring to the Enlightenment Age when Naturalism and Darwinism were on the rise and Deism instead of Christianity was more popular because it was the better intellectual position at the time.

You can attribute II Timothy chapter 3 to any era in history since the book was written. It is not prophetic at all.

Perhaps now is a good time to go over the criteria for a prophecy to be valid? A prophecy must fit five criteria in order for it to be considered valid. It should be noted that not a single so-called prophecy in the Bible meets all five criteria and the majority of them don’t even meet one or two of them. Let’s look at the five criteria:

1. The prophecy has to be clear and concise. It has to be detailed enough that it cannot be fulfilled by a large group of events. The prophecies that you have provided thus far fail this minimum criterion – they are vague and could have indicated many eras and times in the past (and future) since the books were written.

2. The prophecy must predict something that is unusual or unique in nature. In other words, you can’t make a prophecy about a woman having a baby, since most women will have a baby in their lifetime. Again, the prophecies that you have mentioned thus far fail this minimum criterion – they mention something that is commonplace among all religions: non-believers and skeptics.

3. The prophecy has to be made before the event. This would seem rather obvious, but a lot of prophecies are made after-the-fact and then the prophet insists he or she saw this coming beforehand. If that’s the case, they forgot to warn the rest of us ahead of time.

4. The prophecy cannot be about something that can be predicted with an educated guess. Someone that predicted war would break out in the balkans was not a prophet, but was putting the obvious pieces together to make an educated guess about the turnabout of events.

5. The prophecy cannot be staged or manipulated in order to achieve its fulfillment by persons aware of the prophecy. At the millennium celebrations in Jerusalem several Christian groups were arrested for plotting to bomb the temple in order to fulfill so-called biblical prophecy. It’s not a fulfillment if the prophecy is purposely brought about. Luckily, the Israeli security defense forces were on top of the Christian terrorists and stopped their plot.

PROOFS: “The Bible foretold that in the end times Jewish people would return to the land of Israel, which became once again established as a nation in 1948 following the Holocaust of World War II. In Ezekiel 38:8 we can read, “…in the latter years…the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste…””

Every nation or peoples that have been displaced have predicted their return to their home nation and lands. The Native American prophets predicted a return to their lands after the white man decimated their lands, people, and environment. Many Native Americans said the prophecies came true when the Federal Government allotted Reservations. If that’s fulfillment of prophecy, then I’m Santa Claus.

Let’s play along for a second and pretend the prophecy is legitimate. If so, then it is a failed prophecy. Ezekiel 38:8 states, “they shall dwell safely all of them.” This is certainly not the case. Israel has been involved in many wars since the founding of the nation in 1948. Israel is constantly under attack from surrounding nations and insurgents within the country.

The verse also says, “After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword…” To say that almost 2,000 years is the “latter years” is a far stretch of the imagination. The author of the book is saying that God told him he would be visited after many days (not years) and that in his latter years (emphasis on his), the nation of Israel would be restored by the sword. To be truly prophetic the author should have said exactly how long it was going to take. By making the statement so vague, the prophecy would be considered fulfilled by those wishful thinking followers at any time in the future that Jews returned to Israel.

Here’s what I can’t figure out, anyway. Why would God promise the Jews a return to Israel in safety if they rejected Jesus as the Messiah? Wouldn’t God have known that the Jews would reject the claims of Jesus being the Messiah?

Also, the Jews returned to Israel long before 1948. After all, Jewish priests and the Jewish King Herod sent Jesus to Pilate, not the Romans. The Temple wasn’t destroyed until 70 CE.

PROOFS: “Mt. 24:3-14 “As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, ‘Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?’ […]”

This section is very vague indeed, and certainly does not meet the criteria of a prophecy. Many times and eras could have fit this vague so-called prophecy. What about the Crusades? Did not the Crusades fit this prophecy? What about WWI and WWII?

One thing Christians often forget is that Jesus contradicted himself in Matthew 24. Matthew 24:24 states, “Verily, I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” This theme is repeated is Mark 13:30, and Luke 21:32.

The disciples of Jesus thought that the Kingdom of God was coming during their time. They had no idea that 2,000 some odd years later we’d still be waiting for the failed prophesy of Jesus.

PROOFS: “Nuclear weaponry was prophesied in Rev. 6:14 “The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up (mushroom cloud), and every mountain and island were moved…””

Talk about a stretch of the imagination! I’m not sure what version of the Bible you’re using, but almost all the translations I have access to do not say that the sky was split. Instead, they say that the heavens receded or departed. For example:KJV: “And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.”

  • MKJV: “Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.”
  • SV: “And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.”
  • DBY: “And the heaven was removed as a book rolled up, and every mountain and island were removed out of their places.”
  • BEB: “And the heaven was taken away like the roll of a book when it is rolled up; and all the mountains and islands were moved out of their places.”
  • WEB: “The sky was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up. Every mountain and island were moved out of their places.”
  • YNG: “and heaven departed as a scroll rolled up, and every mountain and island — out of their places they were moved;”
  • DRB: “And the heaven departed as a book folded up: and every mountain, and the islands were moved out of their places.”
  • WBT: “And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and isle were moved out of their places.”
  • WEY: “The sky too passed away, as if a scroll were being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.”
  • LAT: “et caelum recessit sicut liber involutus et omnis mons et insulae de locis suis motae sunt”

As you can see, all these translations mention nothing about the sky splitting. What Bible are you using? The fact remains that no mention of nuclear weapons is made and even if the translation of sky splitting were correct, it would still not suggest nuclear weapons. A nuclear weapon does not split the sky and a mushroom cloud looks nothing like a rolled-up scroll. If your Bible-God were the know-it-all that Christians claim, one would think that he could at least be more specific. Perhaps he could have mentioned the splitting of the atom or even mention hydrogen. I’d be impressed if he said the sky would be filled with mushrooms.

PROOFS: “Global TV was suggested to exist at the end in Rev. 1:7 and 11:8-9. AIDS was fortold (sic) in Rom. 1:27.“

Revelation 1:7 states, “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”

Are you serious? This is not in any way suggestive of global television at all. Early non-scientific Christians thought the Earth was flat and that across the Earth you could see anything that occurred at the highest point. This is emphasized by several Biblical verses stating that climbing to the tallest mountain you will be able to see the entire Earth and if you climb the highest tree you can see the ends of the Earth (Matthew 4:8, Daniel 4:10-11 as examples).

If the Earth is flat and someone is descending from the clouds, then every eye could see it. I find it amazing the disservice that Christians do to their Bible-God by stretching verses like this to fit their views. If your Bible-God were truly omniscient then he would have been a bit more specific. If God knew about television ahead of time then why didn’t he mention it exactly?

Romans 1:27 states, “And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.”

You think this says something about AIDS? According to Coffman’s Commentary, this is not the case. Coffman states, “The horrible lusts mentioned here, burning with ever greater and greater intensity, descending constantly to lower and lower levels of uncleanness, and, at last, leaving the sinner consumed by an insatiable lust, cause this terminal condition to be one of utter pitiableness (sic) and misery. This is what is meant by the statement that such persons receive “in themselves” the reward justly due their conduct.”

Gill’s Concordia says that what they receive in themselves is “sin,” that God punishes sin with sin.

The Wesley Commentary states, “Their idolatry being punished with that unnatural lust, which was as horrible a dishonor to the body, as their idolatry was to God.”

The JFB Commentary states, “Alluding to the many physical and moral ways in which, under the righteous government of God, vice was made self-avenging.”

Biblical scholars and commentators disagree with your assessment completely. Each stated that the recompense mentioned was to increase the lust and reward the sin with sin. They even went so far as to mention a saying of the Jews, “One commandment draws on another, so one transgression draws on another; for the reward of the commandment is the commandment, and the reward of transgression is transgression.”

PROOFS: “Many have laughed at the Bible in modern times, as was foretold in 2nd Peter 3:3-4.”

II Peter 3:3-4 states, “(3) this first knowing, that there shall come in the latter end of the days scoffers, according to their own desires going on, (4) and saying, `Where is the promise of his presence? for since the fathers did fall asleep, all things so remain from the beginning of the creation.”

As we’ve already discussed, every religion ever created by man has said that scoffers and skeptics would come and religious leaders tried to prepare their followers for this. You can’t form a religion without having non-believers. Not everyone will buy the bologna being dished out by followers of a religion or the religion’s priests.

Again, this so-called prophecy fails to meet any of the criteria for a true prophecy. The statement is so vague that any time could have been attributed to it. The Enlightenment Age was a good candidate. So were the Renaissance and Industrial Age and other times of increased knowledge. Increased knowledge increases skepticism. As humans increase their knowledge they are less susceptible to religious mumbo-jumbo.

PROOFS: “False Christianity of today (practiced by many) is clearly found in prophecy in such places as Jer. 23:16-22,35-36 ; 2nd Tim. 3:1-9 and 4:3 ; and 2nd Peter 2:1-3. Prophet in the Old Testament generally meant a religious speaker, and prophesy, to speak on religious matters.”

Jeremiah 23:15-16 states, “(15) Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land. (16) Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.”

This is a clear statement from Yahweh that prophets are shams. Yahweh is telling his people to not listen to prophets. Yahweh is speaking in the present tense, so this is not a prophecy. Yahweh is not warning about prophets in the future, but prophets existing at the time.

Yahweh also only mentions prophets from Jerusalem. This means you have to trust any prophet from a place other than Jerusalem. This of course is a testament to the flat-earth view of the writers of the OT and NT. Jerusalem was the center for them and they had no idea that there were other continents and peoples on the planet. If they did they would not have been specific to prophets from Jerusalem, but prophets on the whole world. This is just one more example of the lack of omniscience on the part of the Bible-God, and the ignorance of the book’s writers.

Now let’s continue on to your so-called prophecies about the coming of the Messiah.

PROOFS: “Mic. 5:1-2 would be from Bethlehem–Mt.2:1”

Micah 5:1-2 states, “(1) Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek. (2) But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”

How come Mark and John don’t mention the birth of Jesus? The virgin birth of Jesus, the Three Wise Men, the laying in the manger, the lack of space at the inn, etc., are major themes of Christmas, yet only two of the gospel writers seem to know anything about it.

Of course Mark later says that Jesus came from Nazareth (Mark 1:9), “And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.”

The author of the gospel titled “Mark” was the first book written and he has no idea about the virgin birth and no clue about Bethlehem. Why is that?

Anywhere from 5 to 20 years later (depending on what dating of Matthew you accept) Matthew has to place Jesus in Bethlehem to match the OT prophecies. Matthew also puts into writing the so-called Davidic lineage in order to match the other prophecy about the new Messiah being of the line of David. Matthew is the first apologist making stuff up to fit prophecy. Of course since Matthew was written somewhere around 85-90 CE, this makes sense. By this time there has been enough scoffing and skepticism (as well as competition from other virgin birth and resurrection religions), that Matthew has no choice but to worm things around to appeal to the Jews, which ultimately failed, and to the Gentiles.

Of course if Micah is a true prophecy then it is a failed prophecy. Jesus was not the ruler in Israel. Jesus lasted a few years and was killed – never having landed the position of “ruler of Israel.” If the prophecy in Micah were god-breathed, then you would think that it would be accurate and say that Israel would reject Jesus as the Messiah because he didn’t meet the prophecy criteria as interpreted by the Jewish high priests.

Next comes Luke, who writes after Mark and Matthew. Luke realizes that Mark forgot about the birth but did mention that Jesus came from Nazareth and that Matthew just mentions Bethlehem. How does Luke resolve this contradiction? Luke resolves it by having Joseph pull Mary and the Donkey “out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem” (Luke 2:4).

Then comes John, who wrote between 90 and 100 CE and he didn’t know a thing about a virgin birth or a prophecy about a birthplace – he’s silent on the issue.

PROOFS: “Hos. 11:1 would be called out of Egypt — Mt. 2:13-15”

Hosea 11:1 is not a reference to Jesus in any manner whatsoever. Hosea 11:1 states, “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.”

This is a reference to the Jews. The “called my son out of Egypt” statement is a reference to the removal of the Jews from bondage at the hands of the Egyptians through the miracles of Moses. When God demanded Israel’s removal from the Pharaoh’s bondage, he referred to them as “his son,” “his children,” and “first born” (Exodus 3:10 for example).

The writer of Matthew obviously misunderstood this as well if he is referring to Hosea 11:1, which of course we cannot be sure of since he does not leave us any footnotes (what a convenience to apologists).

PROOFS: “Is. 40:3 ; Mal. 3:1 would be preceded by a messenger — Mt.3:1-3 ; Mk.1:2-4”

Malachi 3:1 states, “See, I am sending my servant, and he will make ready the way before me; and the Lord, whom you are looking for, will suddenly come to his Temple; and the angel of the agreement, in whom you have delight, see, he is coming, says the Lord of armies.”

Thanks to the complete vagueness of this passage, you can attribute anything you want to it. If Jesus is the Son of God, then why call him a servant? Why separate Lord from Jesus by referring to them separately and calling Jesus a servant? And if Jesus is the Messiah, then how come he did not come as the Lord of Armies? The Jews, based on all the unfulfilled prophecies rejected Jesus because he did not come as the Lord of Armies wielding a sword to free the Jews from oppression (just one reason Jesus is considered a false Messiah by the Jews).

In both the Matthew and Mark reference you give, they refer to this Messiah as a “servant.” This is hardly the title one would expect of the Son of God, a part of the Trinity, one born of a virgin that resurrects to heaven and will have a Second Coming.

Is Jesus the messenger or the Messiah? What messenger precedes Jesus? If Jesus is the messenger, then who is coming after him? If Jesus is nothing more than a messenger, then what was the point of the crucifixion? Dying for the sins of humanity is not something one would expect of a lowly messenger of God.

PROOFS: “Is. 42:1 would have Spirit of God — Jn. 1:32”

Isaiah 42:1 states, “See my servant, whom I am supporting, my loved one, in whom I take delight: I have put my spirit on him; he will give the knowledge of the true God to the nations.” John 1:32 states, “And John gave this witness, saying, I saw the Spirit coming down from heaven like a dove and resting on him.”

I find it rather amusing that you chose this verse. Ancient papyri of magic cults use a similar metaphor to describe receiving the spirit in order to become a god. The papyri describe how the heavens open up and the spirit comes down in the form of a bird. This is another fine example of how Christianity stole from ancient Pagan religions in order to more easily sell itself to the Pagan populations. Of course another theory proposed by a few biblical scholars is that Jesus was the leader of a magic cult, which would explain some of the cross-referenced metaphors, and would require the blending of ancient Jewish myths into the story.

Again, this so-called prophecy is so vague that anyone can fulfill it. How many times have we heard religious believers proclaim that they are feeling the spirit or have received the spirit of God when in a church-induced religious frenzy?

PROOFS: “Ps. 69:9 zeal would consume him–Jn 2:15-17”

Psalms 69:9 states, “For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.” 69:1 says specifically that this Psalm is a song to David – not to the coming Messiah. The “zeal of thine house” is the current house of David – not a future generation that the gospel writers can’t agree on when it comes to lineage.

If the gospel writers remembered, “that it was written,” (John 2:15-17) then they remembered it wrong. The Psalm is not a prophecy, but a song to David. The house in Psalms is the house of David. The house in John is the Temple, where merchants are selling doves.

Again, how can this be prophecy? To say that the new Messiah will be filled with zeal is not prophetic; it is an educated guess. Any self-proclaimed Messiah would be full of zeal to spread his or her new religion. Saying someone will be zealous is not prophecy at all. Anyone could fit that description. Of course the Psalm in question is not a prophecy, anyway.

PROOFS: “Is. 32:3-4 would heal every kind of disease — Mt. 9:35 ; 15:30-31”

Isaiah 32:3-4 states, “And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken. The heart also of the rash shall understand knowledge, and the tongue of the stammerers shall be ready to speak plainly.”

How is this healing? Those that CAN see will still see. Those that CAN hear will still hear. Of course stammering people are ready to speak plainly. Isn’t that a bit obvious?

This passage is based on Isaiah 32:1, which states, “See, a king will be ruling in righteousness, and chiefs will give right decisions.” Jesus was never King of Jerusalem. This is another reason the Jews believed Jesus was a false Messiah, because he did not fulfill the prophecy. The Messiah was to come with a sword, would become King of Israel, and lead the Jews out of submission. The new Messiah would not be divine, but would be a prophet in line with Moses.

Matthew 9:35 states, “And Jesus went about all the towns and small places, teaching in their Synagogues and preaching the good news of the kingdom and making well all sorts of disease and pain.” Matthew 15:30-31 states, “And there came to him great numbers of people having with them those who were broken in body, or blind, or without voice, or wounded, or ill in any way, and a number of others; they put them down at his feet and he made them well: So that the people were full of wonder when they saw that those who had no voice were talking, the feeble were made strong, those whose bodies were broken had the power of walking, and the blind were able to see: and they gave glory to the God of Israel.”

I can see where this would inspire Christians that do not believe the mythological aspects of the gospels, but I can’t see where this relates back to Isaiah 32:3-4, which makes no reference whatsoever to diseases.

PROOFS: “Is. 53:3 would be rejected — Jn. 1:11 ; 7:47-48 ; 12:37”

I find it rather strange that Isaiah 53:3 is talking in the present tense and past tense. Isn’t prophecy supposed to be about the future? Apologists make this out to be a prophecy about the persecution of Jesus, but I see nothing in there to lead me to that conclusion other than vague insinuations. The passage, in every translation I read, is in past tense, talking about someone in the past that suffered these things. Nowhere is there anything specific about crucifixion, whipping, being turned in to the Romans by the Jewish priests, carrying a cross, or anything of that nature.

Vagueness is the rule when it comes to biblical prophecy because through vagueness the apologists and wishful thinkers can manipulate passages to fit whatever they want it to fit. We see this with every prophet’s prophecies. Nostradamus’ passages are manipulated every year by different people in order to fit the times and events of their choosing. Isn’t it odd that the passages always seem to fit times and events that help support their own beliefs?

PROOFS: “Is. 53:7 would be silent when oppressed — Mt. 27:12-14 ; Lk. 23:7-10”

Isaiah 53:7 states, “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.”

Notice again that we’re still talking about a past event in Isaiah – this happened to someone beforehand – this is not a prophecy. If it was, what is with the reference to a dumb sheep? Do you support the idea in Isaiah 53:7 that Jesus (we’ll play along for a second and pretend this is real prophecy) was a dumb sheep going dumbly to the shears?

PROOFS: “Is. 50:6 ; Mic. 5:1 would be struck in the face, spit upon, and whipped — Mt. 26:67 ; Mk. 15:15 ; Lk. 22:63-64”

Isaiah 50:6 states, “I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.” Micah 5:1 states, “Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.”

Again we see that all the translations give these passages in past tense. Again we see total vagueness that allows us to attribute these passages to any event we desire to.

PROOFS: “Dan. 9:26 would be killed — Mt. 27:38,50”

Daniel 9:26 states, “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”

If Daniel is a prophet then he sucks at it. According to apologists, and a simple timeline made by using the gospels, Jesus began his ministry around 30. It took more than two weeks before he was executed. Also, Jesus didn’t destroy Israel nor did he ravage us with flood (did the writer of Daniel forget about the promise made through the rainbow?). At least this passage is not in past tense.

Here we see the selective reading of Christians to justify their mythology. They choose to accept the part “Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself,” saying that is a reference to the crucifixion and death for the sins of mankind. But they choose to ignore the rest of the verse, which is clearly wrong on every account. I would expect 100% accuracy from an all-knowing God that “breathed” or “inspired” scripture.

PROOFS: “Is. 53:8-12 would die for sins of others–Jn. 1:29 ; 11:49-52”

Isaiah 53:8 states, “He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.”

Jesus was in prison? When was Jesus incarcerated? Again we see the talking in past tense about an event that already happened.

You know, one thing we’re missing here is the fact that anyone can go back 60 or 80 years after the fact and add stuff to the story to fit ancient prophecies about the event. Anyone can say that Jesus fulfilled prophecy from the OT, but proving it is another thing. You can’t use the Bible to prove the Bible. It’s easy to go back now and pick and choose the passages we want to justify our beliefs, but that doesn’t validate the beliefs at all.

This is made especially more difficult by the glaring fact that the writers of the gospels were not witnesses to the events and wrote their books between 40 and 90 years after the events occurred. We have to assume that the writers did not manipulate the story in order to justify their own views, both politically and socially, and we have to assume that the writers did not add details in order to make their character more believable as a Messiah based on the Hebrew Torah and Tanakh.

PROOFS: “Is. 53:9 would be with a rich man in death — Mt. 27:57-60”

Isaiah 53:9 states, “And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death: because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.”

The rich is a reference to the greedy and sinful (easier for a laden camel to enter the eye of the needle than a rich man to enter the gates of heaven (Matthew 19:24, Mark 10:25, and Luke 18:25)). The BEB translation states, “And they put his body into the earth with sinners, and his last resting-place was with the evil-doers, though he had done no wrong, and no deceit was in his mouth.” The use of “evil-doers” in place of rich is more apropos considering the NT’s stance on the rich in many verses.

The verse is not saying that he would be dead in the presence of a rich man, but that he would make his grave with a rich man, or evil-doer, a man less likely to get into heaven than a camel through the eye of the needle. Joseph of Arimathaea was neither dead nor buried with Jesus.

PROOFS: “Ps. 16:10 his body would not decay–Mk.16:6”

Psalms 16:10 states, “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption [KJV].” The BEB translation states, “For you will not let my soul be prisoned in the underworld; you will not let your loved one see the place of death.”

Psalm 16, if read in its entirety, is not a prophecy at all. At least it does not read like one. It reads like a personal confession and plea by the writer. Regardless, again we see a failure to meet any of the criteria for a prophecy.

Now let’s go on to your claim that the Bible is scientifically accurate.

PROOFS: “The universe is expanding. Job 9:8 ; Ps. 104:2 ; Is. 40:22 ; 44:24 ; 51:13.”

Psalms 104:2 states, “Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain.” Job 9:8 states, “Stretching out the heavens by Himself, And treading on the heights of the sea.” Isaiah 40:22 states, “He who is sitting on the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants [are] as grasshoppers, He who is stretching out as a thin thing the heavens, And spreadeth them as a tent to dwell in.” Isaiah 44:24 states, “Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: `I [am] Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth — who [is] with Me?” Isaiah 51:13 states, “And thou dost forget Jehovah thy maker, Who is stretching out the heavens, and founding earth, And thou dost fear continually all the day, Because of the fury of the oppressor, As he hath prepared to destroy. And where [is] the fury of the oppressor?”

Notice that stretched is used in the past tense? That means that this verse does not support an expanding universe at all. If it did support an expanding universe it would say stretching – not stretched.

Regardless, we see a reference to the heavens being a curtain. A curtain is a single piece of cloth that is stretched over something, such as tent or dome-shaped firmament.

The circle referred to in Isaiah 40:22 is also telling. A circle is not a sphere. A circle is flat – a sphere is round, like a ball. A curtain is a flat item that covers a specific area. A tent is pitched on a flat area – not around a sphere. The heavens can only be a tent if the Earth is flat. Otherwise, it’s not like a tent if it is stretched over a sphere. The Isaiah passage confirms that the men that wrote the books of the OT thought the Earth was flat.

PROOFS: “The nuclear strong force is explained in Col. 1:17 and Heb. 1:3.”

Colossians 1:17 states, “and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.” Perhaps you can explain why you think this verse has anything to do with the Strong Nuclear Force.

Hebrews 1:3 states, “who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might — through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest.”

I fail to see how you can tie the Strong Nuclear Force into these verses. The job, if you will, of the Strong Nuclear Force, is to hold together the subatomic particles (protons and neutrons) of the nucleus (simply put, anyway). Where in the Bible is there any mention of protons, neutrons, nucleons, or atoms?

PROOFS: “Human DNA is much like that of grass (and other living things). Is. 51:12 “…man…is made like grass…””

Isaiah 51:12 states, “I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass.” The BEB translation states, “I, even I, am your comforter: are you so poor in heart as to be in fear of man who will come to an end, and of the son of man who will be like grass?” The Darby translation states, “I, [even] I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou fearest a man that shall die, and the son of man that shall become as grass.” The SV translation states, “I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou art afraid of man that shall die, and of the son of man that shall be made as grass.”

Being made like glass is not what is being said. The phrase, throughout the translations is “made as grass” or “will be like grass.” The JFB Concordia tells us that “be made as grass” means to “wither as grass” (reference Isaiah 40:6-7).

The cross-reference is clearly an indication that the phrase “made as grass” is a reference to the dying process and to death.

PROOFS: “Only in the past 30 years or so has it been known that there are springs at the bottoms of the oceans. Job 38:16 told of this.”

Job 38:16 states, “Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? Or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?” You forgot about Proverbs 8:28, which states, “When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep.”

According to the CCE the phrase is more likely “fountains beneath the sea,” not springs. It also elaborates, “Rather, “the inmost recesses;” literally, “that which is only found by searching,” the deep caverns of the ocean. The John Wesley Explanatory Notes (WES) goes further and says, “Springs – Hebrew for “the tears;” the several springs out of which the waters of the sea flow as tears do from the eyes.”

We’ve heard of these underwater springs from which all water flows before in Genesis 7:11, “…on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.” The “fountains of the deep” or “springs” are references to the Noachian flood. Of course we know from the water cycle that the oceans are not generated from fountains in the deep. The thermal springs discovered with deep submersibles are not water sources, but heated ocean water that has seeped below the sedimentary layer, heated by magma-warmed rocks and then rises as it is heated through thermal vents. These aren’t springs, but regurgitating vents. They are not sources of water, but a place where water is spat back out into the ocean.

The reference to springs is not a reference to thermal vents nor is it to underwater springs where fresh groundwater seeps into the ocean. The reference is to the so-called springs that burst forth with water to cause the Noachian flood along with the opening of heaven to cascade water upon the earth and flood it – killing all inhabitants save a single family led by a drunkard.

The reference made in Proverbs is a reference back to the Noachian flood as well. The strengthening of the “fountains of the deep” was necessary to prevent another Noachian flood, as the Bible-God promised and created the rainbow to sanctify his promise never to destroy all of humanity again.

Now let’s go to the part where you say the Bible supports good health science.

PROOFS: “Gen. 1:29-30 shows that God’s original diet for people was vegetarian, now known to be beneficial. In line with this, God told Moses that the Jews were not to eat fat (Lv. 3:17). And they were not to eat those meats now known more unhealthy (Lv. 11:1-47 and Dt. 14:3-20).”

Genesis 1:29-30 states, “And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.”

So, according to the Bible, all the animals on the Earth that have sharp teeth for tearing into flesh are supposed to eat the flesh of fruit – not the flesh of prey. All the niches for predators are a fantasy? If God created a bunch of vegetarian animals, then why did he give them the physical characteristics of a hunter? So much for “intelligent” in the ever-popular phrase “intelligent design argument.”

Of course God changed his mind and in Genesis 9:3 decided that a omnivorous diet would be better suited, “Every living and moving thing will be food for you; I give them all to you as before I gave you all green things.”

Leviticus 3:17 states, “It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood.”

Of course the entire chapter is talking about a sacrifice of a goat – not all animals. The chapter explains exactly how to kill it and what parts have to be cut out before it is placed on the fire to make an odor pleasing to the Lord. Leviticus 3:16 states, “…all the fat is the Lord’s.” Follow this up with Leviticus 3:17 and it makes sense – the fat of the goat is not to be eaten because, as the previous verses states, the fat of the goat is to be burnt as an offering to the Lord.

The ban on eating blood was elaborated on at the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15:29, which states, “That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.”

We can see that this aversion to blood is directly related to sacrificial animals (meats offered to idols).

The listing of cud-chewing and cloven-footed animals that they can and cannot eat in Leviticus 11:1-47 is ludicrous, at best. Rabbit is bad for you?

They also had an aversion to water-dwelling animals that didn’t have scales and fins (anything other than fish). I guess I can’t blame them – I’m not into slimy water creatures like squid, octopus, and sea cucumbers, either. It’s disgusting looking – regardless of how good it is for you. It’s all about texture. ;-)

Funny, but Deuteronomy 14:3-20, while containing a repetition of Leviticus 11:1-47, also contains a scientific flaw. Deuteronomy 14:18 states that bats are birds.

PROOFS: “The Jews were directed in sanitation and quarantine, although germs were not discovered until around 1890. Lv. 6:28 ; 13:45-59 ; 15:1-13.”

Leviticus 6:28 needs to be stated in conjunction with verse 27. Leviticus 6:27-28 states, “Whatever shall touch the flesh of it shall be holy; and when there is sprinkled of the blood of it on any garment, you shall wash that whereon it was sprinkled in a holy place. But the earthen vessel in which it is boiled shall be broken; and if it be boiled in a brazen vessel, it shall be scoured, and rinsed in water.”

Here again we see the aversion to blood – not sanitary requirements, but a religious ritual regarding the spilling of blood on garments worn in a holy place. This has nothing to do with germs or sanitation, and everything to do with getting blood (as discussed already regarding their aversion to it) getting on any garment that is to be worn in a holy place. In other words, it’s about wearing clean clothes to church.

Leviticus 13:45-49 is not adequate. You cannot dismiss the rest of the rules for lepers. You need to quote Leviticus 13:45-59. This is far from sanitary and clearly they are the rules of a society that is not aware of germs and contagions. The have the priest hide the garment for seven days and then examine it closely, and then simply wash it if it hasn’t turned a certain color is not the best advice for anything dealing with lepers. Telling the priest to burn the garment after it has sat for seven days in a spot where it can breed is hardly what I would call sanitary advice. The entire passage of leper law for priests is so far from sanitary that it makes me cringe when I read it – to think about all those hapless priests that developed leprosy from exposing themselves to a super-gestated batch of leper clothing. Normally leprosy is considered mildly infectious, but under the conditions established in Leviticus, it can be highly contagious. The actions of the priests under the Leper Laws helped spread leprosy – not contain it.

Now let’s move on to your so-called archaeological proof of the Bible.

PROOFS: “For example, Noah’s Ark has been discovered (Gen. chapters 6 through 8). You can see pictures of the ark and documentation in the book The Lost Ship Of Noah… by Charles Berlitz.”

Are you kidding me? Do you know who Charles Berlitz is? Charles Berlitz has written “authoritative” books on the Bermuda Triangle, Atlantis, the Philadelphia Experiment, the Roswell Incident, and the Dragon’s Triangle to name a few. Berlitz is the author of such great titles as “World of the Odd and Awesome” and “World of Incredible but True.”

The Ark has not been discovered. Many expeditions to Mount Ararat in Turkey have come up with nothing. Satellite imagery has produced nothing. Infrared and full-spectrum scanning of the mountain has produced nothing. There have been many hoaxes, but no Ark has been found.

Many people have been fooled into thinking that a volcanic formation near Mount Judi, which is located about 15 miles from Mount Ararat, is the Ark. A tear-shaped air bubble in a volcanic flow created a formation that looks like the hull of a ship. However, this hull-shaped basaltic formation is in the shape of a tear, which is a modern boat hull shape and does not match the dimensions of the Ark given in the Bible.

Fundamentalists have tried everything to convince people the Ark is there, but the fact remains that it is not. Many gullible people (especially those already engaged in gullible activities, such as god belief) have been fooled by hoax pictures and scientific-sounding words like “siliconization” to describe why the volcanic formation is the way it is. The bottom line is that the formation (And I call it a formation because there are thousands of these around the world – are they suggesting there was a fleet of Arks?) is basalt, a volcanically formed rock.

PROOFS: “Remains of one of the cities destroyed by fire and brimstone in Gen. 18:20 through 19:28 have been found– ashes and soot in the forms of buildings.”

The site you are referring to was discovered near the Dead Sea. There were actually two cities found at the site – one built on top of the other. The upper city was discovered after a sandstorm exposed a part of it. When digging in the area they discovered that the city had been built on top of another city that had burnt down. There was no sulfur, as mentioned in Genesis 19:24, discovered at the site. What were found were a city that had burned and a new one that was built on top of it. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the city is either Sodom or Gomorrah. Fundamentalists insisted that archaeologists had found Sodom and Gomorrah, but no archaeologists made that claim.

PROOFS: “Also chariot wheels and parts have been found at the bottom of The Red Sea (Exodus 14). The latter items are in materials by Dr. John Morris of The Institute For Creation Research.”

Leave it to “Dr.” Morris to screw up perfectly good archaeology. The Egyptians were known to throw their used chariots and parts into the Red Sea. The types of chariots and parts found in the Red Sea span a large timeframe of Egyptian development. If the parting of the Red Sea and subsequent swallowing of the Egyptian army were the cause, then one would expect to find that all the parts and remnants to be from the same period, under the same Pharaoh.

However, such is not the case. The remnants of chariots and other items in the Red Sea cover the reigns of many Pharaohs and periods of Egypt. Egyptologists have also discovered papyri and drawings depicting the act of dumping broken chariots and other items into the Red Sea via barges made of reed.

Only a Fundamentalist Creationist would bend this information to fit his needs to believe in a mythological event.

PROOFS: “Rev. 9:21 predicted drug abuse in the end times. The word sorceries there is English for the Greek word pharmakeia, which also translates as pharmacy. (sic)(Notice how similar.)”

Revelation 9:21 states, “Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.”

You are correct that the Greek word is pharmakeia, but you are wrong that the word is a strict translation of pharmacy. The Greek use of pharmakeia was used to describe “the use or administration of drugs,” which is why we used it as a foundation for the modern word pharmacy, “poisoning,” “sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it,” and as a metaphor for the deceptions and seductions of idolatry.

The word “sorceries” or “sorcerers” is used at least five times in Revelation and in each case you cannot aver it to be a reference to the “drug culture.” The use of the word is intermingled with words like “whoremongers,” “idolaters,” “unbelieving,” “abominable,” and liars.

One would think that an all-knowing God would be a bit more specific in order to avoid the confusion. Perhaps saying something like, “And those that burned the spoon and stuck the needle in their arms will perish in the fires of Hell with the adulterers and unbelievers.” Then you’d really be able to make your case.

PROOFS: “Concerning learning to live the Christian life: You should not trust ministers or church people to give you sound Biblical advice and instruction.”

Should we trust you? Why are you any different than ministers or church people? How do you know you are giving sound biblical advice? If anything, I have shown that you are giving far from sound biblical advice. You’re actually helping people become Atheists if they actually research what you’re saying. I’ve always said that the fastest way to Atheism is to read the Bible.

PROOFS: “You need to study The Bible yourself.”

That is the first sound piece of biblical advice that you have given. I encourage all Christians to actually read the Bible and study it for themselves. In doing so they will begin to understand the fallacies, errors, contradictions, inconsistencies, and hypocrisies (just to name a few) of the Bible and Christian mythology.

I will read your recommended reading list if you read mine: Recommended Reading. (I no longer maintain a recommended reading list and stopped doing book reviews)

PROOFS: “This may freely be copied, put in other forms and mediums, translated, and distributed.”

Who wrote this, anyway? Are you the original author or did you forward it to me?

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Debate 024: Conrad and Blair discuss Cafeteria Christianity

Conrad fizzled on me. He was all excited about proving he wasn’t a Cafeteria Christian and when it came down to it the promised email “tomorrow” never materialized.

 

Conrad Rebuttal #001:

My name is Conrad and i’m currently a bible college student. I’m not really sure that this will get through but i sure hope it does. I’m warning you ahead of time that yes you probably are more schooled in mankind’s intelligence and our probably going to be more able to sound intelligent. But i’m going to propose this thought. I gurantee you that deep down inside you not only know there is a God, but the one God that gives you the most trouble, the one from Christianity, the one directly associated with Jesus Christ, is the one true God, three in one if you may. From reading some of your rebuttals I can tell that you are well schooled in the bible but even as you view Christians as “cafeteria Christians”, I’ll suggest that you yourself are looking through your own personalized set of rosey red sunglasses that make you take out only what your want to take out and leave what doesn’t help your case behind. I challenge you to give me some of the classic passages that you think Christians neglect and thus choose to believe in a false truth in your mind, or that shows the bible nullifying itself. I’m not here to just try and reveal the truth to you, but I want you to sharpern and quicken my mind for Christ. I offer you this oppurtunity not only to prove your intelligence and wisdom to me but also to convert me to your side. The side that can’t exist without a God, the side that needs God to exist, the side that in the eyes of God is the dumbest of all, but man will uphold as wisdom. I do respect you as well though, because many Christians don’t deal with what you’ve tackled in the passages of the bible and thus this makes them unthinking Christians which in itself goes against the bible. I care for your soul as you care about me knowing your truths, man’s false truth’s (no offense). I’m looking forward to this for two reasons, I know I’m right, but that’s not the important part, the important part is the second reason. You must be told the Truth and respond. I look forward to you showing me to be a “cafeteria christian”:)…..hope to here from you soon…thanks for letting me take up your time…

 

Response to Conrad #001:

CONRAD: “I gurantee you that deep down inside you not only know there is a God, but the one God that gives you the most trouble, the one from Christianity, the one directly associated with Jesus Christ, is the one true God, three in one if you may.”

Is that a money-back guarantee or are there strings and disclaimers attached? Is it one of those 30-day guarantees or are you offering a 10-year, 100,000 mile guarantee? Perhaps even a lifetime guarantee?

Kidding aside, you are suffering from delusions of grandeur. The only reason that Christianity gives me the most trouble is because I live in a predominantly Christian country. If I lived in Baghdad, then we’d be debating the existence of Allah. If I lived in New Delhi, then we’d be debating the existence of Vishnu or one of his many incarnations.

I do not believe in a god. I do not know there is a god, but refuse to believe. Perhaps you should read the section of Atheism Awareness that addresses this specific issue at: Do Atheists Refuse to Believe In God?

CONRAD: “I’ll suggest that you yourself are looking through your own personalized set of rosey red sunglasses that make you take out only what your want to take out and leave what doesn’t help your case behind.”

Actually, unlike most Christians, I don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. There are some interesting things in the sacred texts of all religions – just as there are interesting things in the works of classical authors. In everything that I read I take a little piece or find something interesting. It doesn’t matter who the book is written by or who it is written for.

Thomas Jefferson is a good example of this. In the classic Jesusian sense, he removed the hoopla, nonsense, and metaphysical from the New Testament and wrote his own version of the Bible that embraced the “good” and the “inherent message of Jesus, the teacher.” The Jefferson Bible can be bought at your local bookstore if you’re ever interested in reading it.

CONRAD: “I challenge you to give me some of the classic passages that you think Christians neglect and thus choose to believe in a false truth in your mind, or that shows the bible nullifying itself.”

Those are two separate issues, but let’s tackle them both. Classic passages that Christians neglect.

Christians are staunch anti-abortionists. They claim that it is murder. However, the Bible considers abortion to be a “property crime” and not murder. The penalty for causing a woman to lose her unborn child can be found in Exodus 21:22.

Women are second-class citizens in the Bible. Christians that let their women wear make-up, speak in church, wear jewelry, let their hair hang loose in church, and run the finances are in violation of Biblical law. See I Corinthians 11:3-15 and 14:24-25, or I Timothy 2:11-14 as examples.

If your child is unruly you are supposed to stone him to death – not put him on Ritalin. You can read about how to stone and kill your misbehaving child in Deuteronomy 21:18-21.

And all those Christian daughters that have had premarital sex. they were supposed to be stoned to death, as well. Only virgin girls can get married under Christianity. Of course there’s no mention of men, so apparently men can have all the premarital sex they want without any repercussions. As for the girls that have premarital sex, we should stone them to death in accordance with Deuteronomy 22:13-21.

When Christian soldiers conquer a country, such as the recent invasion of Iraq, why did they not follow the commandments of God? They were supposed to slaughter all the men and boys and keep all the virgin girls for themselves as wives (Numbers 31).

How about all those Christians that go camping on the weekend and pick up firewood on the Sabbath to keep themselves warm? Well, according to Numbers 15, they should be stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

If your wife grabs the genitals of another man in self defense, then her hand is to be cut off. How many Christian men have cut off their wife’s hands after she has used the grab-a-nut defense? Deuteronomy 25:11-12 says the man is supposed to remove the hand of the wife that touched the other man’s testicles.

Stop calling bats flying mammals. All Christians should call bats birds, or at least fowls. According to Leviticus 11:13-19 and Deuteronomy 14:11-18, bats are birds or fowls – not mammals.

When is the last time you performed a bull sacrifice in accordance with Leviticus 1:9? What about all those Christians that rush to the local oyster house after church or to the local Red Lobster on Tuesday’s “all you can eat crab” night? Did you know they are violating Leviticus 11:10, which clearly identify shellfish as an abomination to God?

All those cotton/rayon blends and silk/rayon blends that church-going ladies love to wear are against the law of their God. They’re going to hell for wearing a 50/50 cotton-polyester blend. How do I know this? The Bible tells me so. Leviticus 19:19 clearly states, “Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.” Of course it also says that Christians can’t plant two different crops in the same field and that they can’t mate two different kinds of animals.

Shall I go on or do you want to tackle these first?

CONRAD: “I offer you this oppurtunity not only to prove your intelligence and wisdom to me but also to convert me to your side.”

I don’t want to de-convert you. All I ask is that you honestly look at the information and come to an educated conclusion. Don’t go by what your preacher said as you were growing up. Don’t even listen to me. Read for yourself, both sides of the issue, do the research and find the date, then come to your own educated conclusion.

CONRAD: “I care for your soul as you care about me knowing your truths, man’s false truth’s (no offense).”

No offense taken. You’ll have to do a lot better than that to offend me. ;-)

CONRAD: “You must be told the Truth and respond.”

Do you think you’re the first person to try? Do you think you’re more qualified than the others that have tried and failed before you? I’ve debated a professor of theology and he didn’t make a dent. I’ve debated soothsayers that swore they were speaking from God directly and they didn’t make a dent. Each of them has fallen defeated in the arena of debate or they have given up.

Most of them have tried thinking that I must not know the Bible or have never read it. Most of them have come thinking that their belief will make them succeed, but that is just a setup for failure. To win in this arena you must have knowledge. You must have evidence. If you come in with nothing but your heart on your sleeve and your emotions in sloshing buckets, then you will fail.

I have read your Bible. I have read the sacred texts of other religions. Perhaps you should try to read the texts of other religions? If you’re interested (and you should be if you think you have a chance against me) then you can check many of them out online at http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm. Reading all of these books has reinforced my atheism. Debating the apologists and theocrats has reinforced my atheism. Christian and Islamic terrorists have reinforced my atheism.

I look forward to your challenge and I hope that you are a worthy adversary. I have been disappointed many times before my amateurs that come prepared with only what they have been taught by their church. If you are unwise as to the ways of the world and the religious views of many nations, then you are unprepared. If you are unwise as to the criticisms of your own religion, then you are unprepared. If you have never read your sacred text straight through, then you are unprepared. If you have never taken a real science class, then you are unprepared.

CONRAD: “I look forward to you showing me to be a “cafeteria christian “:)”

I look forward to doing it.

 

Conrad Rebuttal #002:

I have a question and i want your opninion on it. Just curious as to what you think, a person has a ball and is on one side of the table, another person who is you, is on the other side of the table, the person rolls the ball to you across the table, what do you do and why?…ttyl..

 

Response to Conrad #002:

I guess that depends on the mood I’m in. If I’m in a playful mood I will catch the ball and roll it back – beginning a game. If I’m not in the mood, I’ll just let it roll of the table.

I know that from past experience and physics that inertia will bring it to me, provided the forward momentum and inertia can get over the friction of the table surface. If I don’t catch it, gravity will take its toll and cause the ball to fall to the floor, where new inertia will cause it to roll away – meaning I have to get up and go fetch it. So, if I’m lazy, then the most efficient method is to catch the ball before it rolls off the table – less work in the long run, no matter what mood I’m in.

 

Conrad Rebuttal #003:

Hello again, Sorry for the delay, but as I’ve expected you’ve bombarded me with a lot of thoughts and counter thoughts opposed to mine. Rather than trying to give you general thoughts, quick reviews, or answers to all of the things said, I think you would be more appreciative of me thoroughly reviewing all the questions individually and giving them the proper effort needed to adequately answer your remarks. I’ve decided to start with the Old Testament passages you gave me. The first email I’ll be sending will be on the Exodus 21 passage.

BLAIR: “Christians are staunch anti-abortionists. They claim that it is murder. However, the Bible considers abortion to be a “property crime” and not murder. The penalty for causing a woman to lose her unborn child can be found in Exodus 21:22″.

Perhaps you’re merely testing me to see if I’m at all up to the task at hand, but this seemed to be quite easy along with the others you’ve given me, so by no later than tomorrow I’ll be e-mailing you my response with plenty of information for you to digest. Thank you again for taking the time to read what I had to say.

I’m still waiting for the “no later than tomorrow” response. I guess it wasn’t as easy as he thought. ;-)

Debate 023: Ian and Blair debate evolution & the Bible

Ian Rebuttal #001:

Just because fossils and dinosaur bones exist doesn’t at all prove evolution. Carbon dating is a very interesting discovery, but is still an unknown variable. You can estimate the rate of carbon decay and guess your way backwards, but I would hardly call it proof. Do I believe things could be very old in this world? Sure. But from my standpoint, they could have easily been created right with the world.

I’d be happy to hear how the Bible “unravels” itself. I’ve heard most theories, so please explain. From the people I’ve talked to, none could support their claims. I’m not doing this to argue, but to clarify any misconceptions. I will never tell anyone what to believe.

I would like to point out a common misconception that all scientists believe in evolution. Quite a few think it is ludicrous, but alas, education books like preaching on. From my standpoint, one cannot argue for evolution and not be able to explain the details.

Scientific theories say matter cannot be destroyed. It is mearly reallocated in a different form. How can evolution support the claim that matter formed from nothing? Have you heard of Entropy? It is a basic teaching of science that things will always go from order to disorder. How then can evolution miraculously teach that somehow mother nature will go against this basic principle?

Of course things “evolve”. People change over time. There is nothing wrong with change Biblically. Take a look at Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

You mention the OT and NT contradict each other. How? I’ve heard quite a few arguments, and would be curious to hear what you can come up with.

I think you mentioned you are not a Biblical scholar. How then can you argue the Bible is wrong?

I think discussion is great. The best we can do is learn from each other.

Religious Confusion

It is unfortunate there is so much confusion now in days regarding religion. People get tired of not knowing which to choose and instead choose to believe nothing at all. Look at Christianity and how various church bodies have become corrupted over time. Church bodies keep splitting and becoming more scattered. I don’t doubt this. As the world ages, I believe there will be more and more confusion about what to believe. The Bible refers to the breakdown of the church, and while unfortunate, is bound to happen.

Just think of your children. If you has talked to Jesus and witnesses His miracles, you’d certainly tell your children, wouldn’t you? In turn, your children would tell their children…and so forth. But what about a few more generations down the line? Suddenly, Jesus is less credible and sounds more like a story. Would it be proof sufficient for Jesus to come tomorrow and prove Christianity? Not really, as future generations will continue to disbelieve it…although people tomorrow might be convinced. Are we robots? Of course not. We have the capability to make choices…along with whether to believe in God or not.

There has indeed been a ton of scientific discovery in the past 200 years. And that is great. But it doesn’t mean, in the materialistic world we live in, that God doesn’t exist. Aside from pleasure, what does technology really accomplish?

Again, there has been much corruption elsewhere as well. So one really can’t give an excuse not to believe because of the world’s corrupt past. Greed runs rampant in this world and always has. People will always try using the Bible to benefit their own selves.

It is a sad truth. Just look at some of America’s religions…there is documented proof that their leaders became extremely wealthy at the expense of their followers. These people were screwed up and went against everything the Bible teaches (can you say false prophets?). This in of itself does not mean the Bible is flawed. In fact, the Bible shows this will happen and warns against it.

On evolution

Concerning the Big Bang, where did the “molten blobs” come from? I’d like to know. Just like people may argue the molten blobs were always there, people can also argue that God has always been there (as I believe). People have a tendancy to want to play God and not like another power over them….especially in this society where people have such comfort and no fear of outside events.

Of course it is easy to say “God made it”. The Bible isn’t complicated and wasn’t intended to be.

Concerning Biblical Origin

I’m not going to doubt that humans make mistakes. Of course they do. We’re all sinful. But compare our Bibles today to the earliest manuscripts that exist, and they are incredibly accurate. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1944, they were accurate and went according to our Bibles today. I guess I don’t see your point. And like I said before, of course sinful men can twist the Bible to suit their desires.

Personally, I think atheism can be a crutch for the religious confusion that is out there. People do not understand the Bible and the millions of belief systems out there, so they choose to believe none of it. If you are ever interested or have questions regarding the Bible, please do ask. I’d be happy to explain.

Christianity in General

You fail to show how the Bible or God are fairy tales. Can you disprove them? Can you disprove Jesus never existed? I still see a lot of assumptions being called proof.

The obvious solution to me is the Bible is your proof. No other book has “survived” like the Bible has. No other book has produced more copies. Don’t you think that if people knew Jesus didn’t exist, they would have not spread Christianity so zelously?

Conclusions

Bibilical translations are necessary to spread the Bible and God’s Word. Do you see any translations being based off previous translations (and so forth) and thus corrupting the Bible? I’m not certain of what some modern day translations have done, but most (in almost every language imaginable) are based off the earliest manuscripts.

If you have questions about what I believe, please do ask. Public or private is fine. I’ve talked to quite a few people about the Bible and what I believe and their opinions have always been based on misconceptions.

 

Response to Ian #001:

IAN: “Just because fossils and dinosaur bones exist doesn’t at all prove evolution.”

That is correct. The fossils alone do not prove the theory of evolution or evolutionary biology. The fossils are part of a massive amount of evidence that supports the theory of evolution and evolutionary biology. One piece of the puzzle does not give one the picture – it is most or all of the pieces that one can ascertain the true picture that the puzzle creates.

IAN: “Carbon dating is a very interesting discovery, but is still an unknown variable. You can estimate the rate of carbon decay and guess your way backwards, but I would hardly call it proof.”

Carbon dating, the dating of materials using Carbon-14 is not used to date material older than 50,000 years and that can be a stretch sometimes. The half-life of Carbon-14 is 5,730 years, so after so many years there should be no detectable Carbon-14. Of course Carbon-14 can only be used to date materials that were biological, such as plants, bones, etc. Carbon-14 cannot be used to date inanimate material such as rocks.

The creationist argument that Carbon-14 is an invalid way to measure things in the millions of years is an accurate argument. However, it is also a stupid argument, because scientists know this and don’t use Carbon-14 to date things older than 50,000 years.

For more information on Carbon-14 dating and what it is used for (not what the creationists think it’s used for), you can check out some reliable online sources such aswww.c14dating.com, and www.radiocarbon.org.

Perhaps you mean radiometric dating, accelerator mass spectrometry, or isochron dating?

IAN: “Do I believe things could be very old in this world? Sure. But from my standpoint, they could have easily been created right with the world.”

Why would your Bible-God create the universe to look and act like it was 14 to 15 billion-years-old? Why would he create the world to look and act like it was 4.5 billion-years-old? Even if the creation account were correct, why would you dismiss the world of evolutionary biologists, geologists, anthropologists, oceanographers, etc for discovering how your Bible-God made it look?

IAN: “I’d be happy to hear how the Bible “unravels” itself. I’ve heard most theories, so please explain.”

I’d be happy to show you how the Bible “unravels” itself.

Let’s start off simple. We’ll take the 12-step program of Bible errancy. We’ll call it Bible study so you feel right at home. I’ll let you do the study so you can personally find and witness the contradictions. I’ll give you 12 questions about the death and resurrection of Jesus. Read all four gospels to answer the questions. Include each answer from each gospel and ensure that there are no contradictions or inconsistencies.

Read the four gospels, answer the questions from each gospel and make the answers work without contradicting each other. If you can do this, you’ll be the first person to ever do it – no theologian or Biblical scholar has ever been able to do it. Good luck!

  1. What time did the women visit the tomb?
  2. Which women visited the tomb?
  3. Was the tomb open when they arrived?
  4. Who was at the tomb when they got there?
  5. What did the messenger tell the women?
  6. Did the women tell what happened?
  7. Did Mary know Jesus had resurrected when she returned to the tomb?
  8. When did Mary first see the resurrected Jesus?
  9. After visiting the women at the tomb, whom did the resurrected Jesus visit next?
  10. Where did the resurrected Jesus first appear to the disciples?
  11. Did the resurrected Jesus stay on Earth or depart that same day for Heaven?
  12. Where did the ascension take pace?

After you answer those 12 questions just get back to me with your 100% contradiction-free answers.

IAN: “I would like to point out a common misconception that all scientists believe in evolution. Quite a few think it is ludicrous, but alas, education books like preaching on.”

Please provide a sample of scientists within the field of biology that do not agree with biological evolution. If you would like to give me a list of accredited scientists from accredited universities that do not accept the science of evolution, I’d be happy to look at that, too.

The few “scientists” that I’ve met that rejected the science of evolution came from Christian colleges (although the majority of Christian colleges teach evolutionary biology because they know it’s scientifically sound). A few other scientists that rejected the science of evolution came from fields that had nothing to do with evolutionary biology. Biochemists work without any reference to evolutionary biology – they care about how biochemicals work – not how biochemicals evolved. Michael Behe is a biochemist. Of course, if you read Behe’s book, he is a proponent of evolutionary biology – he just thinks that “god did it.”

IAN: “From my standpoint, one cannot argue for evolution and not be able to explain the details.”

One cannot argue against it if they are not able to explain the details. If you are going to argue for or against something, you must know both sides. I do. Do you?

IAN: “How can evolution support the claim that matter formed from nothing?”

Evolutionary biology does not make that claim. You are confusing evolution with cosmology.

IAN: “Have you heard of Entropy? It is a basic teaching of science that things will always go from order to disorder. How then can evolution miraculously teach that somehow mother nature [sic] will go against this basic principle?”

How do you see evolutionary biology and the theory of evolution as a violation of entropy? For that matter, didn’t the Bible-God violate entropy when he created the world from chaos? Regardless, please explain how the theory of evolution and evolutionary biology violate entropy.

IAN: “I think you mentioned you are not a Biblical scholar. How then can you argue the Bible is wrong?”

You don’t have to be a Biblical scholar to read the Bible and see all the errors, contradictions and inconsistencies. I think you would also find that most biblical scholars recognize the problems and are not apologists. You’d probably be surprised to find out that when new theology students arrive at theology school they are in the 80 percentile of “literalist.” By the time they leave theology school they are only in the 30 percentile of “literalist” (source: Barna Research, 2002).

Why is that? That change occurs because in theology school they teach these students real theology and real biblical scholarship, with criticisms and analysis – something they never learned in Sunday school. The students learn about the contradictions. They learn about the theological problems and inconsistencies and how the apologetics were adopted and ultimately adapted and evolved. The students learn the history of the Bible instead of the Bible as history.

Many students that enter theology school never go on to become priests, pastors, ministers, or preachers. Several atheist friends of mine went through theology and seminary school and it is there that their roots of atheism were founded as they began to learn what Christianity really is instead of what their Sunday school teacher and parents wanted them to know.

I believe that I can speak about the Bible because I have read it several times (straight through). I have studied biblical scholarship and theology. I have attended seminars and lectures given by biblical scholars and theological historians. I have been to Israel to tour the places of the Bible. I have discussed these issues with theologians, biblical scholars, and clergy of many faiths. I have read the statements of one side and the apologetics of the other.

I have read the reason and the rhyme. I have read the pros and the cons. I have made sure that I know both sides so that I can make an educated decision about the issue instead of being told what to believe. I would recommend that you do the same thing.

IAN: “People get tired of not knowing which to choose and instead choose to believe nothing at all.”

Did you look at the other religions of the world? Did you study the Qu’ran, Vedas, Enuma Elish, Koryak, Kitab-i-Aqdas, Kitab-i-Iqan, Apocrypha, Tanakh, Book of Shadows, the Word, Dhammapada, Sutta Nipata, Vinaya, Corpus Hermeticum, Kebra Nagast, Mabinogion, Lun Yu, Ta Hsueh, Chung Yung, Book of the Dead, Thelema, Secret Doctrine of Theosophy, Rosicrucian texts, Devi Gita, The Magus, Akaranga Sutra, Kalpa Sutra, Talmud, Qabalah, Midrash Tanhuma, Kalevala, Shah Namah, Book of Mormon, Walam Olum, Malleus Maleficarum, Prophecies of Nostradamus, Oahspe, Book of Knowledge, Te Pito Te Henua, Kumulipo, Sybilline Oracles, Prophecies of Paracelsus, Kama Sutra, Ananga Ranga, Kojiki, Nihongi, Yengishiki, Kwaidan, Shundai Zatsuwa, Bushido, Shri Guru Granth Sahib, Mishkat Al-Anwar, Rubayyat, Mahanirvana Tantra, Shakti-Shakta, Tao-te Ching, T’ai Shang Kan-Ying P’ien, Yatkar-i-Zariran, Avesta Vendidad and the Khorda Avesta (just to name a few)?

If the Bible-God were as powerful as you make him out to be, one would think that this confusion or “not knowing which to choose” would not be a problem.

IAN: “Just think of your children. If you has talked to Jesus and witnesses His miracles, you’d certainly tell your children, wouldn’t you?”

If I had seen the events as they are told in the Bible, then yes, I would tell my children. Unfortunately, no one at the time seemed to tell their children. With all that happened when Jesus supposedly gave up the ghost, no one seemed to notice. Not a single document of Rome or Judea mentions these events. Not a single historian of the time mentions any of these so-called miracles or heavenly events. Not a single historian or literary of the time mentions it. The only reference you’re your gospels that were written after-the-fact by non-witnesses.

IAN: “Would it be proof sufficient for Jesus to come tomorrow and prove Christianity? Not really, as future generations will continue to disbelieve it…although people tomorrow might be convinced.”

Yes, that would be proof. He can fly down on his magic cloud, set his golden harp aside, fold his white wings back, drape his white robe and sit down and have a cop of coffee with me. We can talk about the creation, the OT, the NT and other things. He can perform a few blatant miracles and I’ll be convinced. The first thing I’ll ask him after he convinces me is, “Why didn’t you do this for everyone? Why let all those people go to Hell when you could have done this with every person in the world?”

I’ve yet to get a straight answer on this – perhaps you can answer it. Why did the all-powerful Bible-God choose a specific region for conversion to his new religion of “follow my son, I mean me, my son and that third thing, the grandfather of my father of my son?” One would think that this all-powerful Bible-God could convert the entire world at once. It seems rather silly to send your son to die for the sins of the world and then not tell the world about it.

If the only way to Heaven is through Jesus, and no one knew about it – then everyone went to Hell until the world finally spread. It’s taken almost 2,000 years for the word to spread and there are still people that haven’t heard about Jesus – and everyone that missed the word is going to Hell – even if it wasn’t their fault. All those Native Americans that didn’t find out until the Spanish swords were dripping with the blood – went to Hell. All those people in the OT that were alive before Jesus – went to Hell. All the people in middle and South Africa that didn’t hear about Jesus until their masters on the plantation told them about him – all went to Hell. All the feral children and indigenous peoples of the world that never heard of Jesus – all went to Hell.

All the babies that are killed before their first Sunday school lesson – they go to Hell. All the mentally retarded children that can’t understand the concept and therefore can’t accept Jesus – they go to Hell.

How is that a moral doctrine?

IAN: “But it doesn’t mean, in the materialistic world we live in, that God doesn’t exist.”

That is correct; it doesn’t mean that a god doesn’t exist. It does mean that the Bible-God doesn’t exist. The Noachian flood never happened. A six-day creation never happened. A 40-year exodus in the desert never happened. The Tower of Babel never happened. Adam & Even never happened. The very things that the Bible-God is attributed with doing never happened and that’s because he never happened.

IAN: “Aside from pleasure, what does technology really accomplish?”

Technology has helped considerably with the survival of the species: increased life spans because of advanced medical science, decreased infant mortality rates, increased growth and delivery of food to prevent starvation, and much more.

Technology has also made information wide-spread. The human masses were ignorant before books were widely available. When books became available to the common man, then we began to see social change as man was educated. Then technology increased that knowledge with mass production of books and interstate commerce. Telecommunications and the advent of the wireless and ultimately the Internet increased that knowledge even more. With all major advancements in technology and specifically in the spread of information, a social change occurs.

The Renaissance, the Reformation, the civil rights movement, the woman’s suffrage movement, and the sixties are just examples of these social shifts at the advent of new information and ease of spreading that information.

Satellite communications and the Internet are getting the word out about the reality. The false statements and nonsense issued from the pulpit are responded to and disseminated via these mass-media means. The public learns the history of the Bible instead of the Bible as history. The public learns the hatefulness of the Bible and Qu’ran. The public learns about the cruelty of those that would espouse their god to do harm to others.

This increased information availability has seen a major increase in Freethought around the world. The Holy See has officially declared several countries to be “Officially Pagan” and they are renewing their missionary approach to those countries. Information is available to anyone and the church can no longer control it.

Islam’s current situation is a direct result of this mass media and information availability. Islam has turned in on itself and has attempted to seclude the Islamic population from the information of the world. The media outlets are state-run in theocracies and dictatorships. The information provided to the Islamic public is filtered and full of hatred against Jews and westerners.

Instead of blossoming and becoming a part of the world, Islam has pulled its window shades, bolted the doors and set the alarm – letting no influence in. This lack of education, equality, and economy in that part of the world, coupled with the Qu’ranic blinders of “hear no evil, see no evil” has increased the Fundamentalist extremists of the religion to a boiling point.

Christianity had to deal with this a long time ago. During that time they did the same thing that Islam is doing today. The Spanish Inquisition was how the church dealt with technology and information availability. Luckily for the world, the Reformation occurred and Christianity was watered down. That watering down continues to this day. As you mentioned, the church creates a new split each year as new denominations are formed – each one a watered-down version of its predecessor.

IAN: “People will always try using the Bible to benefit their own selves.”

By using the Bible as a way to get to Heaven, aren’t you doing the same thing?

IAN: “These people were screwed up and went against everything the Bible teaches (can you say false prophets?). This in of itself does not mean the Bible is flawed.”

I would disagree with you. The very fact that there are so many interpretations and so many different views of the Bible is a very testament to its flaws. If the Bible were clear and concise, as one would expect from a so-called all-powerful supreme being, then there would be no discordance among the pious masses. The fact that the common man cannot read the Bible and know exactly what the pious pulpit states is a testimony to the fallibility of the Bible.

Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Bob Jones, James Kennedy, Billy Graham, Benny Hinn, Jim Bakker, and many others get away with it because the sucker that’s born-again every minute can’t understand the Bible on his own. No one is willing to take the time to actually read the entire thing and study its origins and meaning. If they did, then I would aver that the churches would be empty. The churches are relying on the incontinence of the biblical word and the inability of the pious masses to make heads or tales of who, what, when, where, and why.

The lack of knowledge by the public and the commercial genius of the pious pulpit have worked together to make the Bible-God a corporation. I’d like to buy 100 shares of GodCo and Jesus, Inc., please.

IAN: “Concerning the Big Bang, where did the “molten blobs” come from? I’d like to know.”

For information on the Big Bang, please see Where Did It All Come From?

IAN: “Of course it is easy to say “God made it”. The Bible isn’t complicated and wasn’t intended to be.”

The Bible isn’t complicated? Aren’t you the same person that made reference to all the different churches not agreeing on the Bible? If the Bible isn’t complicated then why is it so hard for the churches to agree on it? If the Bible isn’t complicated then why have there been so many councils for thousands of bishops and presbyters to figure out what it meant and “law down the law” on how they interpreted it?

IAN: “But compare our Bibles today to the earliest manuscripts that exist, and they are incredibly accurate.”

Are you sure about that? Most biblical scholars would disagree with that statement.

IAN: “When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1944, they were accurate and went according to our Bibles today.”

That is entirely false. The finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls, especially Qumran Cave 4, created more variants and more problems for biblical literalists. The book of Isaiah, for example, was found to be missing several chunks (in the Bible version) and the chunks that weren’t missing were found to be full of mistakes. The Dead Sea Scrolls were talked about widely when they were initially discovered. When translation began, they suddenly disappeared. It wasn’t until years later that they were finally brought out in the public again and it was disclosed just how bad they made the Bible look.

The number of variants of manuscripts is ludicrous. The variation of the variants is even more astounding. There are books that aren’t in the Bible – why didn’t they make the cut?

Regardless, the accuracy of the translations of the modern Bible compared to the ancient manuscripts of which they originated is irrelevant in the long run. It doesn’t matter if the translations are accurate or not. Accuracy of translation is not proof of the accuracy of the Bible itself and it certainly is not proof of any god represented therein.

IAN: “Personally, I think atheism can be a crutch for the religious confusion that is out there.”

Personally, you’d be wrong. Atheism is the removal of the crutch. Atheism is the sorting out the confusion and getting the real picture. Atheism is the recognition of the ludicrous nature of religion and breaking free of the imprisonment of thought.

IAN: “If you are ever interested or have questions regarding the Bible, please do ask. I’d be happy to explain.”

I think you have enough explaining to do with the 12 questions I presented you above as a precursor to contradictions in the Bible. No offense, but I doubt there is anything you can tell me about the Bible that I don’t already know or that I haven’t already heard.

IAN: “You fail to show how the Bible or God are fairy tales. Can you disprove them?”

Atheism Awareness does not attempt to do that. The purpose of Atheism Awareness is to address the myths, misconceptions, and misunderstandings of atheism. One page refers to my view that the Bible is nothing more than fairy tales for adults, but the page makes no claim to show that.

All that aside, it is easy to refute and dismiss the personalized, characterized, and defined gods of mankind: Yahweh, Allah, Vishnu, etc all fall under scrutiny. The atheist freely admits that he or she cannot prove that a god does not exist – you cannot prove a negative.

As far as fairy tales go, there is no reason to prove it – just read it. The tale of Noah and his Ark is clearly a fairy tale and never really happened. The tales of the plagues of Egypt at the behest of Moses are fairy tales that never really happened. The tale of Adam & Eve and the talking snake is obviously a fairy tale. Where did the talking snake come from, anyway? We know these are fairy tales not just by the silliness of them and the outlandishness of them, but by the scientific evidence against them (no global food, etc).

IAN: “The Can you disprove Jesus never existed?”

One cannot prove a negative, so one cannot say that Jesus never existed. What I can say is that based on the available evidence, or more accurately, the lack of available evidence, it is more probable that Jesus, as the Christ, never exist. Is it possible? Yes. It is probable? No.

Anything is possible – unicorns, Big Foot, Loch Ness monster, leprechauns, gremlins, ghosts, vampires, werewolves, etc. I’d rather deal with the probable than the possible. Are you willing to admit that leprechauns exist because they possibly exist and no one can prove that they don’t exist?

I would remind you that the burden of proof is in your court. You have made the exceptional claim that a man around 30 CE performed miracles, was executed, died and was buried, resurrected and then ascended up to Heaven where he awaits to return on his whim to Earth to wage holy war against the sinners.

Tell me a great teacher lived in 30 CE and taught a form of Judaism then you’re getting a little more credible, more believable because you have less exceptional claims. Start throwing in all the miracles and metaphysics and you are crossing into the realm of exceptional claims – a realm for which you have no proof.

One mistake of the Christians is to use the Bible to prove the Bible. Where are the outside sources and verifications? None of the so-called references of Jesus that apologists often quote are even remotely legitimate (not a single one). Do Christians fail to recognize the works prior to 30 CE and the supposed life of Jesus? The stories of older gods and goddesses that match the story of Jesus – why aren’t these taken into consideration by Christians?

IAN: “The obvious solution to me is the Bible is your proof. No other book has “survived” like the Bible has.”

That’s an awfully bold statement to make, especially considering that it is wrong. The Bible, as you know it (66 books), has only been around for approximately 1,700 years. The Tanakh, Torah, and Talmud have been around for much longer. The books of Judaism have been around longer than the Bible.

If you are going to use longevity and durability as an argument for accepting a theology, then perhaps you should consider converting to Judaism?

Or perhaps you should consider Hinduism? The Vedas has been around hundreds of years longer than the 66-book Bible. Of course there are other books that are older than the Bible and still around, too.

As to longevity being a proof of something, you are leaving a lot to be desired. How does the longevity of something make a statement of its truth or proof? We’ve seen the destruction of many doctrines of the Christian church fall during the 1,700 years that the 66-book Bible has been around.

The idea of a hard firmament that is described in the book of Genesis fell. The idea of a flat Earth described in the OT and NT fell (although a few die-hards still believe that the Earth is flat). The idea of a geocentric solar system, as described in the Bible, fell.

IAN: “Don’t you think that if people knew Jesus didn’t exist, they would have not spread Christianity so zelously [sic]?”

No, I don’t think that at all. Often the most zealously spread doctrine is a doctrine of lies and deceit. One need only view the historically recent Nazis to see how such zealousness can be produced on a doctrine of lies, deceit and fabrication.

During the time that Christianity was gaining a foothold, the religions of the world were replete with miracles, virgin births, resurrections and other such mythology. The people of the time, not having the technological advances of our time (as we discussed earlier), were not inclined to find the stories false. That does not mean that there were not critics at the time. Unfortunately, the early Christian church set out to destroy all critics and criticisms and few remain to this day.

IAN: “I’m not certain of what some modern day translations have done, but most (in almost every language imaginable) are based off the earliest manuscripts.”

The KJV is a good example. The original manuscripts (which do not exist) would have been written in Hebrew of Aramaic. What remains is the Greek Septuagint. The Greek was translated into Latin. The Latin was translated into German and the German was finally translated into English in order to create the KJV.

If you want a version that is more accurately translated from the Greek Septuagint, I would recommend the Scholar’s Version (SV). Unfortunately, the SV only covers the NT. However, the Tanakh and Torah, the Jewish sacred texts, are good sources to get closer translations to the original Hebrew, as they are still written in Hebrew to this day. You can view the Tanakh, Torah and Talmud online at Sacred Text Archive: Judaism.

And Ian, like most, disappears into the masses…

Debate 021: Ken and Blair debate Biblical inerrancy

Ken and I exchanged a few informal emails back and forth before he decided to initiate a “formal” debate.

 

Ken Rebuttal #001:

Sorry it’s taken so long for me to get back to you, but it’s just been crazy for me with finals and everything else going on.

Anyway, gosh there’s so many topics we could choose from. Since this debate is based solely on the existance of a God, why don’t we start out by examining The Bible-what I believe is the Word of God. I’m curious to see what you believe The Bible is and perhaps if you can find anything in The Bible that would lead you to believe that it is simply a book that man created solely on his own. What I would hope to find here is any evidence that you can find in The Bible that was written about that is either contradictory or proven false (not by theory but by fact).

From my experience, when reading The Bible I have always found it to be much more then some book that mere men could write. I have always found it’s claims to be unique and bold yet always true. The Bible claims to be God-breathed, and in order for that to hold up, The Bible would have to be perfect, for God is by The Bible’s definition flawless, perfect. So that’s where I would like to start if that sounds good to you-let’s examine the evidence for and against The Bible. Feel free to expand on the topic in any way you see fit if you think it’ll add to our discussion.

What has always intrigued me is that throughout history archeologists have used The Bible as a sort of map to search for ancient cities or civilizations. The physical characteristics described in The Bible are now about 75 percent proven, and that number is on the rise. Furthermore, I have never found anything in The Bible that, when taken correctly in context, is either false or contradictory. That simply can not be claimed by most, if not all, of the world’s religions. But this fact in and of itself does not make The Bible true. I can write a book that is perfectly flawless in physical nature but make claims about God or the universe that are simple false. For example, I could say “the world is round and I, Ken Rogers, am God.” This would simply be false. So what I find is that although the factual evidence for The Bible is wonderful for believers, it is not the only reason to believe in it. What has compelled me to believe in it is the philosophical reasoning behind The Bible and the changes that I have seen it cause in people’s lives. I have seen people (including myself) that have researched and read The Bible and applied it to their life. What I have found is that it gives people meaning for their life in a way that can be backed by truth. I believe that The Bible is unique in that it tells of the one true God that truly cares deeply about His creation and is not simply an authoritarian figure. In other world religions you see a religion based on works or monetary gifts that will supposedly further your standing with God. But The Bible is unique in that it tells of God’s nature that He does not care about money-that money is simply a thing of the world that will be useless after this life anyway. It tells of a God that does not care so much about the things of this world but rather is interested in the well-being of His people. It tells of a God that is longing to be close to and love His creation and who wants to spend eternal life with them, blessing them with His perfect presence in thier life. That’s what sets The Bible apart to me, I’m excited to hear your take on The Bible and what The Bible is to you. Blessings.

 

Response to Ken #001:

KEN: “What I would hope to find here is any evidence that you can find in The Bible that was written about that is either contradictory or proven false (not by theory but by fact).”

Will I be able to hold you to the same? Will you present only fact and not “theory?” Of course I’m assuming that when you use the word “theory” in the sense that you have, that you are referring to a sense of deduction. You obviously are not talking about scientific theory, as a scientific theory is held up by facts – it is an idea supported by the facts. Theories in science are not the same as hunches of common man on the street.

However, I will hold you to the same criteria – you can only present facts (you’ve lost this debate already and don’t even know it).

KEN: “I have always found it’s claims to be unique and bold yet always true.” [sic]

I take it you haven’t read too many books, then. Have you tried the sacred texts of other religions? The Bible is not unique – it was just spread by the sword faster and more efficiently than the other sacred texts of the world’s religions.

KEN: “The Bible claims to be God-breathed, and in order for that to hold up, The Bible would have to be perfect, for God is by The Bible’s definition flawless, perfect.”

Just to make sure I understand your stance, you think that the Bible is God-breathed and is 100% perfect; without error, contradiction or inconsistency. If the Bible claims that God is perfect, and God breathed the Bible, then the Bible is perfect. Circular logic aside, I will hold you to that claim. If I can show that the Bible is not perfect, that it is full of errors, inconsistencies and contradictions, then you must admit, at a minimum, that your Bible-God is imperfect, and preferable, that your Bible-God is nothing more than the fanciful writings of imaginative men.

KEN: “What has always intrigued me is that throughout history archeologists have used The Bible as a sort of map to search for ancient cities or civilizations.”

You should clarify that statement. What archaeologists use is the Hebrew text of the Torah, which was adapted and adopted by Christians as the Old Testament. The references in the Hebrew texts to kings, cities, etc, seem to be mostly accurate. The use of known figures and known cities to establish a timeline and a sense of “awareness” for the reader is not uncommon in most sacred texts and modern writing.

The book Escape from New York is riddled with references to actual cities, streets, historical persons, etc. This does not mean that the story is real or that the characters, such as Snake Plisken, are real. What it does mean is that the author used legitimate references in the storyline in order to help the reader grasp the concepts presented – to have a better feel for the story. It’s a common practice of authors – both then and now.

So what archaeologists are finding is that many of the cities referenced were real. Some of them are still present, but are under different names. Some of them are buried under the sand. What archaeologists are also finding is that while the cities references are real, the stories about them are bogus. Sodom and Gomorrah never succumbed to a great nuclear blast generated by the fingertip of Yahweh. There is no evidence of any mass exodus of millions of Jews across the desert for 40 years.

KEN: “The physical characteristics described in The Bible are now about 75 percent proven, and that number is on the rise.”

Please provide a source for that information. Please elaborate on “physical characteristics.” It seems to me that your reference to the physical is exactly what I am talking about – cities, statesmen, etc – historical characters and cities used as reference points in a story of imagination.

KEN: “Furthermore, I have never found anything in The Bible that, when taken correctly in context, is either false or contradictory.”

Very well, let’s start out simple. What I’ve found is that most Christians have not really read the Bible. What they tend to do is read the passages that their preacher talks about on Sunday or passages that are sent to them via email from someone promoting some specific viewpoint – justifying their nonsense with Biblical prose. Those that have read the Bible cover-to-cover are the ones that notice the problems that are inherent in the Bible. So let’s just take a small portion of them and go from there. We’ll see what you can do with these.

We’ll begin in the New Testament. What I would like you to do is read about the death and resurrection of Jesus in the four gospels. It may be easier to have four Bibles open to each gospel with the aforementioned section open in each. As you are reading each account from the separate gospels, answer the following questions. Then re-write the gospel account, using data from all four gospels, without having any contradictions, inconsistencies or errors. That is your challenge. If you can do it you will be the first person in history to do it. Theologians and Biblical proponents have failed at every attempt so far. We’ll start you off easily with just seven questions. Can you beat them? Let’s see…

  • What women visited Jesus’ tomb?
  • Was the tomb open when the women arrived at Jesus’ tomb?
  • Did the women tell anyone what they had seen at Jesus’ tomb?
  • When did Mary first see Jesus?
  • After appearing before the women at the tomb, who did Jesus next appear to?
  • How long did Jesus stay on Earth before the ascension?
  • Where did Jesus ascend to Heaven?

KEN: “That simply can not be claimed by most, if not all, of the world’s religions.”

It can’t be claimed by yours, either. However, most of the world’s religions make the same claim. The Qu’ran boldly claims that no one can write a Surah to match the beauty and prose of those that are breathed by Allah.

KEN: “What has compelled me to believe in it is the philosophical reasoning behind The Bible and the changes that I have seen it cause in people’s lives.”

Would you give equal merit behind self-help books that do the same? How many people’s lives have been changed by L Ron Hubbard’s Dyanetics and the founding of the Church of Scientology?

How many lives have been changed by the Qu’ran or the Qabalah? How many lives have been changed by reading The Word by Buddha and finding out about the eight-fold path? How many people still quote Confucius from his Analects (Lun Yu) or The Great Learning(Ta Hsueh)?

Or perhaps we can go further back and look at the great influence that the Egyptian Book of the Dead had on people and still has to this day? What about the Vedas of the Hindu or the Akaranga Sutra of Jainism? How about the Tanakh or the Talmud of the Hebrews?

Even more modern is the many lives influenced and changed by the Book of Mormon or The Gardnerian Book of Shadows, which established modern neo-Paganism and Wicca. We can look at our own continent and ask the Cherokee for their Sacred Formulas or travel to Japan and read the Kojiki of the Shinto.

Or perhaps we can read the Shri Guru Granth Sahib of the Sikh religion – a book that has changed the lives of people so profoundly that they are willing to risk discrimination and harassment in public by wearing large turbans and being confused as Muslims in this post-9/11 environment.

Maybe we can visit our local New Age center and after watching Tai-Chi being performed, ask the participants how much they were influenced by reading the Tao-Te Ching? We can visit among those that worship Zoroaster and ask them how much their lives have been influenced by reading the Yatkar-i-Zariran or Khorda Avesta?

We can even ask a few atheists if they’ve been influenced and had their lives changed by reading the Humanist Manifesto or a science book. Ironically, if you ask me what book influenced me the most, I would agree with you – the Bible. It was reading the Bible that influenced my life the most – made me realize what a hypocrisy Christianity is and that it is nothing more than a sham – just like every other religion on this planet.

KEN: “I have seen people (including myself) that have researched and read The Bible and applied it to their life. What I have found is that it gives people meaning for their life in a way that can be backed by truth.”

The fact that a book gives someone meaning to their life is not factual proof of the book itself – or of its supposed author(s). Many books have given “meaning” to the lives of the people that have read them (as discussed above). People need to believe in something it seems. It doesn’t matter what that belief is, because they are all victims of geography.

The only reason that you have latched onto the Bible is because you were not born and raised in New Delhi or Baghdad. If you had, you would be trying to convince me that the Vedas or Qu’ran were “God-breathed” and perfect. Because you were born and raised in a predominantly Christian environment, you latched on to the book that was available in your geographic region. You aren’t a Christian because it is true – you’re a Christian because you were raised that way – brought up in an environment surrounded by the dogma and icons of that religion – it was familiar to you – comfortable – a security blanket of recognition in a world of religious rainbows – you picked the black and white you were used to.

KEN: “I believe that The Bible is unique in that it tells of the one true God that truly cares deeply about His creation and is not simply an authoritarian figure.”

Really? You don’t see the Bible-God as an authoritarian? You don’t see all the rules and “bow before me” and “go to Hell if you don’t believe in me” as authoritarian at all? You don’t see the Bible-God as demanding absolute obedience to his authority? Are you reading the same Bible that everyone else is reading?

KEN: “In other world religions you see a religion based on works or monetary gifts that will supposedly further your standing with God.”

What religions are those? Please provide specific examples and if you can quote from their sacred text that would be even better.

So you don’t see tithing as buying your way into Heaven?

KEN: “It tells of a God that does not care so much about the things of this world but rather is interested in the well-being of His people. It tells of a God that is longing to be close to and love His creation and who wants to spend eternal life with them, blessing them with His perfect presence in thier [sic] life.”

Tell me again how that makes the Bible factual and “truly God-breathed.”

I am still waiting for Ken’s response.

Debate 020: Shelli and Blair get into a heated exchange

Shelli Rebuttal #001:

Why do Atheists keep mentioning September 11th and blaming God for the attacks? God gives us free will. We choose to love or to hate! He gave us our own minds! If we allow war to happen, God has to allow it. Satan is the king of lies! He wants us all to hate God. There were several September 11th stories about how many people were inexplicably late to work that day! Come on, God had to have been there, or many more people would have perished! The towers collapsed inward instead of toppling over. Many more people would have been killed! GOD IS PRESENT EVERYWHERE AT ALL TIMES! The cross they found standing upright in the rubble! That says it all. Without the Good Lord, the country would not have found its strength to pick up and recover from such a horrible tragedy! If you don’t have God in your life, how do you survive? How do you find comfort? How do you have peace? Science answers the how but not the why….but even science knows that energy has to go somewhere. It doesn’t just disappear. Our souls are our energies. Our breaths of life. Our physical body is temporal. Our souls are eternal. This lifetime is just a pit stop on the way to eternity. How can you deny an all-knowing God and rely on yourself instead? How can you reject the Christ Jesus who died on the cross for the salvation of all mankind? I shall pray for you. God Bless you.

 

Response to Shelli #001:

Please allow me to address your points individually so that you understand the concepts that you are questioning.

SHELLI: “Why do Atheists keep mentioning September 11th and blaming God for the attacks? God gives us free will.”

Welcome to the world of apologetics. The problem with a monotheistic god is that the god is blamed for everything: good and evil. That was unacceptable for the Christians, so they exaggerated the role of Satan and made him responsible for evil. But that wasn’t good enough in the long run because people soon figured out that if this nemesis, which was nothing more than a “fallen angel”, was giving their god a run for his money. How can an all-powerful god be trumped by a simple angle? It was a theological corner that the church had painted itself into. Then came advanced apologetics and the invention of the concept of “free will.”

I assume that since you think you are an educated Christian that knows Christian history that you are aware that the concept of “free will” did not come about until long after the Christian religion was formed? You were aware of that, right? You were aware that it was the church that created “free will” in order to remove the blame of evil from god, right? I’m sure you knew that.

SHELLI: “If we allow war to happen, God has to allow it.”

An oft-used analogy is that human beings are the children of God, who is the father. Let’s say that a child is getting ready to shoot his sibling. The parent is sitting in the room and watching this take place and he or she does nothing. The parent lets the child shoot his sibling and kill him. When the police ask the parent why he or she didn’t stop the child from shooting the other, the parent responds, “They have a choice. They have free will. If they decide to kill each other, I have to allow it.”

If the Bible-God allows evil to happen when he has the ability to stop it then that God is condoning the evil. The doctrine of “free will” is nothing more than an apologetic attempt to remove the blame of evil from your god. It is an immoral doctrine that reeks of capitulation to evil on the part of the so-called parent.

SHELLI: “Satan is the king of lies! He wants us all to hate God.”

This is a rather odd concept considering it is not backed up in the Old Testament. Why Pauline Christianity pegged on Satan when it was not founded in the Torah is still somewhat of a mystery, although most realize that he didn’t know the Torah very well and was a theological moron.

If Satan can deceive us, then he has more power of us than your Bible-God. How can we have “free will” if Satan can manipulate us? Why can’t the Bible-God manipulate us into knowing he exists? In the apologetics to eliminate the blame of evil on the Bible-God the Christians have made Satan more powerful than their “supreme being”, who as we are learning, is not that supreme after all.

Where is Satan mentioned in the Old Testament? And what is his role when he is mentioned?

The first mention of Satan in the Bible is in 1 Chronicles 21:1, which says, “And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.”

Satan convinces David to conduct a census of those “who drew the sword.” Joab, the one assigned by David to get the numbers, miscounted by two people (he purposely left out Levi and Benjamin). Because of this and the act of conducting the census, God gave David the choice of three punishments; three years of famine, three months of being defeated by his enemies or three days of “the sword of the Lord”, which was “the plague of the land, with the angel of the Lord destroying throughout all the territory of Israel.”

David chose the punishment of three days and God killed 70,000 Israelites through plague and destroyed Jerusalem.

Maybe it’s just me, but who did the most evil and immoral thing in this story? Satan is guilty of convincing David that he needed to know how strong his army was. God killed 70,000 people and destroyed a major city.

How did God make David personally pay for the heinous sin of counting his armed forces? God made David build an altar in a building owned by a man named Ornan, who was a Jebusite. Luckily for David, Ornan the Jebusite let David have the building at no cost and he even gave David the oxen and other stuff for the sacrifice upon the altar.

How is Satan the bad guy in this story? I don’t see it. This supposedly good God that Christians and Jews believe in performs the only evil deeds in this story.

The next mention of Satan is in the book of Job. Satan arrives at a gathering of “the sons of the Lord” and God asks him if he has considered Job, who God seems to think is the cream of the crop of believers and those that conduct the required sacrifices at the right time and place. Satan says that if God punishes Job that Job will basically bad-mouth God. So God gives Satan permission to mess with Job.

The first thing Satan does is have raiders steal his five hundred oxen and five hundred donkeys and slay the servants tending over them – leaving only one servant alive that could tell Job what happened.

Then Satan burned Job’s seven thousand sheep (the messenger said it was the “fire of God from Heaven”) and killed all the servants except the one that could tell Job what happened. Then Satan sent more raiders to kill Job’s three thousand camels and all the servants tending them except one that was allowed to tell Job what happened. Then Satan sends a great wind to destroy the house of Job’s children and they were killed as the house fell on them.

Job stood his godly ground and said a prayer to God at hearing this news – he wept none or was angry none – the only thing he did was shave his head and rip off his robe and prayed naked.

But God wasn’t satisfied. The next time the “sons of the Lord” convene God gives Satan permission to mess with Job directly – to harm his physical body but not kill him. So Satan gives Job boils over his entire body.

Okay, so again, where is the evil coming from in this story? Satan is doing the dirty work, but he’s doing it at the behest of God and with his full permission. Satan is not God’s archrival in Job – Satan is God’s helper; the Godfather’s hit man out on a contractual hit.

Another mention of Satan comes in Psalm 109:6, but in many translations the word is “an accuser” and not Satan. The majority of the Bible dictionaries and scholar notes list this as “an adversary” – not as Satan.

The next mention of Satan is in Zechariah 3:1-2, which is where the Lord actually rebukes Satan and says that Jerusalem rebukes Satan.

There is no mention of “Devil” in the Old Testament (KJV). The only mention of “Lucifer” is in Isaiah 14:13 (KJV), which is where Lucifer is the name of the Day Star – not the name of Satan or the Devil.

Satan is often attributed with the Original Sin and the downfall of humans from the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Knowledge. Yet nowhere in Genesis does it say that Satan was the serpent. Satan is never mentioned in the Garden of Eden or in the story of the Original Sin.

The bottom line is that the church could not blame their “loving” God for acts of terrorism (both natural and man-made). They had to have a scapegoat to blame all the evil on. Satan was transformed by the early Christian church from God’s right-hand-man into the alter ego of God with the same power and abilities. Satan became a god and Christianity became a polytheistic religion. Of course you’ll never get a Christian to admit that Satan is a deity.

SHELLI: “There were several September 11th stories about how many people were inexplicably late to work that day! Come on, God had to have been there, or many more people would have perished!”

You can’t be serious? Do you know how many people work in the WTC? Do you know on a daily basis how many of those people arrive late? If you’ve ever been to the NYC area (I have) you would know that thousands of people are late to work every day because of traffic jams, train delays, accidents, etc. The same amount of people that were late to work that day is the same amount that is late to work on any other NYC workday.

The other issue is that many people are on alternate work schedules. Many companies stager their employee work times in order to reduce traffic jams and congestions. Some start at 8 and others at 9. Those that started work at 9 that day never made it to work because they attack occurred between 8 and 9. If it were truly godly intervention then the attack would have occurred before 8 – so that no one was in the building.

Besides, you can’t have it both ways. Does god intervene or not? You said he couldn’t be accused of not stopping it because we have “free will” and allow it to happen. Then you entertain the idea that god made people late. If he can intervene in making people late to work, then that is not “free will”. You are contradicting yourself. You are giving your god credit for making people late – but refuse to give him credit for letting the tragedy occur in the first place.

You have, like many before you, painted yourself into a theological corner. You have placed the blame of evil onto man through “free will” and taken god’s hands out of the picture. Then you put god’s hands back into the picture when it comes to good. Either your god can intervene or he can’t. Which one is it? Does god intervene or does he allow humans to have “free will”? You can’t have it both ways.

SHELLI: “The towers collapsed inward instead of toppling over.”

And if you knew anything about physics and architecture you would know why that occurred. In order to topple the towers, you would have to hit them near street level. You can’t fly an airplane along the street to hit the WTC on the 14th floor. Again, are you giving god credit for making the tower collapse inward? If you are then you are saying that your god intervenes to save lives. If he did this, then you are also admitting that he failed to intervene in the first place and stop the tragedy from happening.

SHELLI: “GOD IS PRESENT EVERYWHERE AT ALL TIMES!”

So we don’t have free will. Thanks for clearing that up.

SHELLI: “The cross they found standing upright in the rubble! That says it all.”

It was actually leaning at a 45-degree angle, but we’ll forgive you of that bit of ignorance. What geometric form do you think they built the WTC out of? The T-bar was the most predominant geometric pattern in the construction of the WTC. That means that they found a lot of lower case t’s strewn throughout the rubble. Only one, which happened to be sitting at a 45-degree angle, caught the attention of Christians. Christians were desperate for some reassurance that god was there – they were ready to latch onto anything that helped them put aside the doubts they were having and their questioning of the “will of god.”

If you must latch onto the lower case t, which was the predominant geometric shape, then so be it. As to a testament to some god being there… you’re just pulling at straws.

SHELLI: “Without the Good Lord, the country would not have found its strength to pick up and recover from such a horrible tragedy!”

What you should really say is, “Many people would not have recovered so quickly from the effects of the 9/11 faith-based terrorist attacks if it had not been for the psychological need that religion, any religion, filled for many people. This was especially true for those that have a hard time accepting reality and need a make-believe religious world to feel better about what happens and to explain away the acts of man as “evil.”

Sure religious beliefs helped some people recover. But to give credit solely to your god is really egotistical of you. The Muslims in this country turned to their god to help them heal. The Buddhists turned to meditation to help them heal. The Hindus turned to Vishnu to help them heal. The Wiccans turned to Mother Earth and The Goddess to help them heal. It wasn’t any god that helped people – it was the calming effect that religious rites have on people – the biological reaction to prayer, meditation, trance, biofeedback, etc.

SHELLI: “If you don’t have God in your life, how do you survive?”

I survive the same way that you do. I live in a house to protect me from the environment. I go to the grocery store to buy food and water to sustain me.

Certainly you are not suggesting that you can survive without these; that only God allows you to survive? Are you willing to quit your job, sell your house, sell your clothes, sell your car and then give all your money away so that you are homeless, have no vehicle, are jobless, and have no money? Then see if you can survive on God alone. You survive because YOU do the work. You get a job, you buy the groceries, you tend the house, etc.

When something good happens you give your Bible-God the credit instead of giving yourself a pat on the back for doing the work. When something bad happens then what do you do? You blame yourself. This goes back to this so-called “free will” that you claim we all of us has. If we truly have “free will” then you must give yourself credit for everything: both the good and the bad. You cannot give your Bible-God credit for the good if you truly have “free will.”

SHELLI: “How do you find comfort?”

See the following sections of Atheism Awareness to answer that question: Do Atheists Have a Meaning to Life? and Where Do Atheists Turn for Strength In a Crisis?

SHELLI: “Our souls are our energies. Our breaths of life. Our physical body is temporal. Our souls are eternal.”

What proof and evidence do you offer to back up this claim that our energy is our soul?

SHELLI: “How can you deny an all-knowing God and rely on yourself instead?”

Can you force yourself to believe in pink unicorns and Leprechauns? Can you force yourself to believe in Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster? Why not? You can’t force yourself to believe in these things because you have seen no proof. So why do you believe in a god? Why do you believe in a god that is so contradictory and evil and based on a book full of errors and contradictions?

I guess what it boils down to is that I don’t need the psychological crutch of a god like you do.

SHELLI: “How can you reject the Christ Jesus who died on the cross for the salvation of all mankind?”

Can you prove that Jesus died on the cross or that he even existed?

SHELLI: “I shall pray for you.”

If you must. I’ll let you in on a little secret; prayer doesn’t work. There are tons of people that have prayed for me, are praying for me and will pray for me. I’m still an atheist and I have yet to see any proof of your god or any other version of mankind’s gods. I don’t ask for much. All I need if for the invisible man to come down and sit at my kitchen table and have a conversation with me. Yep, that’d be all that I need to accept that a god exists – no matter which religion makes the claim.

In the meantime, get on your knees and grovel if you must. If that makes you feel better then more power to you – I hope you’re happy.

Shelli Rebuttal #002:

Your views absolutely make no sense. We can have free will and divine intervention at the same time. Apparently, you only believe in what you can see. Don’t compare earthly parents in every way to an all-knowing God, who is far more powerful than Satan ever will be. Jesus Christ has already defeated Satan. The God in the Old Testament is slightly different than the God in the New Testament. He sent his only begotten Son into the world to save our souls from eternal hell, which is where all humankind belongs. However, because of the crucifixion and resurrection, our sin debts have been paid in full. I find it odd that you seem to believe in the stories of a “so-called evil God” in the Old Testament but then refuse to believe that Jesus Christ ever existed. A man who was completely without sin. So you believe the bad but not the good? That is ignorance. God does not or has ever condoned evil. Why do you think he sent Jesus to Earth for our salvation if he did not love us? Do you actually believe the complexities of this universe are completely random? How can life create itself if a house can’t even build itself? So, I guess atheists sit and wait for the trees to chop themselves up and construct a house for them? There has to be a blueprint for everything that is created, and there has to be a creator. How can you look at the beauty of nature and not see God in everything? Come on. Common sense. Every person has their destiny laid out before they are even born. God frames them, we add the colors to the palette. Sorry, this is not a perfect world. Bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people. But God is in absolute control of everything. He knows where everyone is going to end up. Everything happens for a reason. If God did not allow bad things to happen, how could we grow as people? How would we mature? How would we become stronger and wiser? Even earthly parents have to allow their children to make mistakes. Although, God is infinitely wiser and far beyond our understanding. Atheists, in their stubbornness and foolishness, are simply rebelling against an authority they simply can’t understand. So, they have to try to explain things away scientifically. Face it, you all know deep down inside there is a God. Stop the insurrection, or you will learn the truth the hard way. Prayer does work, by the way, for people who love, trust, and give their lives to the Good Lord. I am living proof of that. Atheists are not heard by God. He doesn’t know you. If you shove him out of your life, you are out from under His wings of protection. And we wonder why this world is going to hell? No one wants to live by God’s rules anymore, but yet everyone wants to go to Heaven. Except for the atheists, who do not care. What part of “Thou shalt not” don’t you understand? Remember, God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, one of which is “Thou shalt not kill”. Doesn’t sound like an evil God to me. If everyone followed these ten simple rules of love and moral behavior, there would be less violence, less disease, less hatred. You can’t argue with that. So, with your frail views and misconceptions about so many things, you have failed to convince me there is no Almighty Creator watching us from afar. I will pray for your salvation. God Bless you.

Hmmmmmmmmm. Atheists say the Bible is full of errors and contradictions. That may be because MEN wrote it through their own interpretations. Who else is prone to error but humankind? The Bible cannot all be taken literally. People may read it front to back and have so many interpretations of it. The 66 books of the Bible were written by several different wise men. God is perfect, but men aren’t. The truth, however, cannot be changed. You atheists can explain things away as scientifically and logically as you please. However, what do you do when you can’t explain something with practical knowledge? Fill in that gap. Why was the universe created? Face it, the thinking of atheists is VERY limited. The Bible isn’t just about the stories. It is about the moral teachings of a loving, faithful, Almighty God who created us to have fellowship with Him. If you want evidence of what happens when you don’t follow His teachings, just look at human history for a good reference. God does not MAKE anybody kill. God does not kill anyone. Those are Satan’s lies. MEN choose to be good or evil. People need to stop blaming God for everything and start taking responsibilities for their OWN actions. Men can be just as evil today as they were thousands of years ago. If it is not good, it is NOT of God. If you have hate in your heart, you are NOT of God. If you are NOT of God, you are ALREADY dead. So stop dwelling on the Old Testament stories of a vengeful, wrathful God who wanted to punish His unruly, evil children, and focus entirely on His loving guidelines for a happy, healthy, abundant life on this Earth. GOD IS LOVE! If everyone would just stop thinking of “me, myself, and I” all the time, this would be a much better world in which to live. Start with the TEN COMMANDMENTS (which belong in the public schools), please! In conclusion, for those who do not believe that free will and divine intervention cannot both happen (again, limited thinking), they can. God does not directly interfere with our free will, but He can protect us from any harm or danger that may accompany any choices that we make. Example: a person who chooses to drive while intoxicated, ends up in a potentially fatal car accident, and walks away without a scratch (from a scientific point of view, he absolutely should have died as others in the exact same situation have in the past). God Bless.

God says, “My ways are not your ways. My thoughts are not your thoughts.” All he asks of us is to trust Him and not to worry about understanding everything that He does.

 

Response to Shelli #002:

SHELLI: “We can have free will and divine intervention at the same time.”

If the divine intervenes in our lives, then our choices are irrelevant. If the divine intervenes then we do not have free will. You cannot have it both ways – either we have free will or we live under divine intervention.

If god has the power to intervene and does not – then he is guilty. If god cannot intervene – then he is impotent. Either way, he is not worthy of worship – even if he exists.

SHELLI: “Apparently, you only believe in what you can see.”

Using the term ‘believe’ loosely, I believe what can be proven. You?

SHELLI: “Don’t compare earthly parents in every way to an all-knowing God, who is far more powerful than Satan ever will be.”

It wasn’t a comparison – it was an analogy. Regardless, I will compare your Bible-God to earthly parents. The bottom line is that your Bible-God, as a “parent,” is a complete failure. He purposely kills his children. He lets his children die when he has the capability to stop their death. He lets his children become ill and diseased when he has the ability to stop it. The Bible-God would be thrown in jail for child abuse and child negligence if he weren’t a pretend character in a fairy tale book.

SHELLI: “Jesus Christ has already defeated Satan.”

Why did Satan need to be defeated by Jesus? Is your Bible-God so impotent that he couldn’t beat Satan? Didn’t you say that your Bible-God was more powerful than Satan? It sounds to me like Satan is kicking your Bible-God’s arse.

But why did Satan need defeating in the first place? I think the only thing you know about Satan is what you hear in church from your mythology teacher, I mean preacher. Let’s take a Satan pop quiz.

  1. What does satan mean?
  2. How many times is Satan mentioned in the OT?
  3. How many times in the OT does Satan act without God’s permission or guidance?

SHELLI: “The God in the Old Testament is slightly different than the God in the New Testament.”

So God evolved? Or is he a different god altogether?

SHELLI: “He sent his only begotten Son into the world to save our souls from eternal hell, which is where all humankind belongs.”

So everyone that lived before Jesus is in Hell? If Jesus is the only way to Heaven – then everyone that lived before Jesus didn’t even have a chance of making it. Abraham, Job, Lott, Solomon, Adam and everyone else all went to Hell because they never knew Jesus. Babies that die before going to church go to Hell because they don’t know Jesus. Feral children raised without knowledge of Jesus go to Hell because they don’t know Jesus. Mentally retarded children and grown-ups go to Hell because they can’t understand the concept and don’t know Jesus.

SHELLI: “However, because of the crucifixion and resurrection, our sin debts have been paid in full.”

So basically you’ve skirted all your responsibilities off on Jesus. You can do whatever you want and it’s okay because Jesus died for your sins and you are forgiven. How is that doctrine moral?

SHELLI: “I find it odd that you seem to believe in the stories of a “so-called evil God” in the Old Testament but then refuse to believe that Jesus Christ ever existed.”

Why do you think I believe in the stories? Oh, you mean you don’t get sarcasm and reference? Oh, my bad. Allow me to put it in black and white since you don’t understand referencing: I don’t believe in your Bible-God. I don’t believe in your Bible-Satan. I don’t believe in your Bible-Jesus. I don’t believe in Adam and Eve, the Global Flood, the Burning Bush, the Exodus, the Virgin Birth, the resurrection or the Second Coming. The Bible is a book of allegories, fables and legends, written by men.

I don’t refuse to believe that Yeshua existed. There is no evidence to prove that he did, so I don’t believe that he did at this time. If evidence were to present itself, then I would rethink that position. You do realize that Christ is a title and not a last name, right? It should be the Christ Jesus or Jesus the Christ. It’s a shame that atheists know more about Christianity then Christians do. Of course that’s why we’re atheists – we know more about Christianity.

SHELLI: “So you believe the bad but not the good? That is ignorance.”

No, that would be stupidity – not ignorance. What is stupid is coming away from my last email thinking that I believed in the “bad God.” Ignorance is a lack of information – one is ignorant when they do not have all the information – like you when it comes to the information about Christianity and Christian theology.

SHELLI: “God does not or has ever condoned evil.”

Really? Remember what I said about your ignorance? Let’s just start with one example: Job. Who do you think sent Satan to mess with Job? Who do you think gave Satan the guidelines in how to mess with Job? Who do you think told Satan to step it up and increase the pain and suffering to Job? I would suggest that you read Job and see who the real evil villain is in that story.

SHELLI: “Why do you think he sent Jesus to Earth for our salvation if he did not love us?”

Why did it take him so long? If your Bible-God is so powerful, surely he knew what was going to happen. If he did, then why waste all that time? Why the Global Flood where he killed all of mankind (save a family) and all of the animal kingdom (save two of each species)? Why all the torture, killing and mayhem? Was God just getting his evil-doing out of his system?

SHELLI: “Do you actually believe the complexities of this universe are completely random?”

Yes. You actually believe that an invisible man in the sky created the Earth in six days to include only two humans. You believe that this all-powerful being lacked the foresight to create Eve right away because he should have known that Adam would be bored. You believe that this all-powerful being couldn’t find Adam & Even in the garden after they ate from the apple tree; that he had to wander around looking for them? You really believe that?

SHELLI: “How can life create itself if a house can’t even build itself?”

As much as Christians love strawman arguments, you’d think their God was a Sacred Scarecrow. If you don’t know what a strawman argument is, then you shouldn’t be debating.

SHELLI: “So, I guess atheists sit and wait for the trees to chop themselves up and construct a house for them?”

So, I guess Christians sit and wait for their God to do it for them? No? Oh yeah, they have to do it themselves because their God doesn’t exist.

Please explain how the analogy between a house and a life works. What aspects of a house are comparable to a life form? What part of a house lives and breathes and reproduces? Man obvioiusly intelligently designs a house – we can see it being built. Have you seen your Bible-God build a life form? Have you witnessed this building so you can positively say that it is intelligently designed? I can prove a house is intelligently designed – can you prove that life is?

SHELLI: “There has to be a blueprint for everything that is created, and there has to be a creator.”

Let me rephrase that sentence for you so that it speaks the truth. “There has to be a creator of everything because I want there to be. I’m too scared of my own mortality so I need a Creator to give me purpose and make death less scary for me.”

SHELLI: “Every person has their destiny laid out before they are even born.”

Oh… so we don’t have Free Will, then. It’s good to know that you agree with me that we don’t have free will. I don’t agree with the whole destiny thing, but at least we agree that free will is a fraud invented by apologists to take the blame of evil off of their god.

SHELLI: “If God did not allow bad things to happen, how could we grow as people? How would we mature?”

We’re not talking about minor things here. We’re not talking about letting your teenage son learn his lesson about women the hard way. We’re talking about the wonton destruction of human lives. We are talking about major catastrophes and disasters. When people are killed by evil acts and they are killed by “acts of God” (AKA natural disasters) then how do they grow? They’re dead – they can’t grow and mature. The bottom line is that you have now admitted that your Bible-God lets it happen. He knows about it and lets it happen. Your Bible-God has foreknowledge of a crime, a murder, a catastrophe, a disaster and he lets it happen. Your Bible-God is responsible.

SHELLI: “Even earthly parents have to allow their children to make mistakes.”

Um… didn’t you reprimand me for using that analogy?

As I said above, making mistakes is one thing; killing people is another. The parents that let their children die with full knowledge are guilty under our legal system. Parents that kill their children are guilty under our legal system. If your Bible-God allows death to occur, especially on the scale of natural disasters and events like 9/11, then he is guilty of aiding and abetting known criminals, criminal negligence, accessory to the fact and many other charges – both federal and state criminal charges.

SHELLI: “Face it, you all know deep down inside there is a God.”

You’d like to think that, wouldn’t you? If that’s the case then why are you emailing me and going through all this trouble? If we all know deep down inside that there is a God, then we’re not really atheists? If that is the case, then we recognize God and we get to go to Heaven. So why are you wasting your time?

SHELLI: “Prayer does work, by the way, for people who love, trust, and give their lives to the Good Lord. I am living proof of that.”

 

Prove it.

SHELLI: “Atheists are not heard by God. He doesn’t know you.”

The more and more we talk the more and more we find out that your Bible-God is not all that powerful and not all that knowing. You make your Bible-God sound like an incompetent nincompoop.

SHELLI: “Remember, God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, one of which is “Thou shalt not kill”. Doesn’t sound like an evil God to me.”

Have you ever read the entire Bible? I don’t think you have. Soon after the delivery of the Decalogue, God sends Moses on a killing rampage to destroy an entire tribe. God tells Moses to kill everyone except for virgin girls – they are to be taken as wives. They kill men, women and children. What part of “Thou shalt not kill” does your Bible-God not understand?

SHELLI: “If everyone followed these ten simple rules of love and moral behavior, there would be less violence, less disease, less hatred.”

And yet in every historical instance of a Christian theocracy, where the Decalogue was followed as you suggest, the society failed and failed miserably. The society ended in bloodshed and destruction. The strict adherence to the Decalogue causes societies to fail. Let’s look at the Decalogue and see how they’ll work in society if they are adhered to strictly as you suggest.

I Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

It’s interesting to note that it doesn’t say, “There are no other gods.” Yahweh is basically saying that there are other gods out there – he just wants to be the number one god – the Zeus of Judaism. Anyway, what would you have those people of other religions do in your society? Will you force non-Christians to become Christians? This commandment cannot work under our Constitution and is in direct violation of our freedom of religion. What does this commandment have to do with love or moral behavior? Are you suggesting that only Christians are moral people?

II Thou shalt not worship false idols or make graven images… blah blah blah…

What does this have to do with love and moral behavior? Are you suggesting that Buddhists are immoral? Are you prepared to get rid over everything that people worship and to disregard religious freedom?

III Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

Again, what does this have to do with love and moral behavior? Are you suggesting that we get rid of freedom of speech?

IV Remember the Sabbath…

Christians violate this law every Sunday. The Sabbath, as recognized in the OT, starts Friday night and ends Sunday morning. The Sabbath is on Saturday – not Sunday. So every Saturday that you work you are violating the fourth commandments. Every Sunday that you go to church you are violating the fourth commandments. Do you know where the idea of a Sunday Sabbath came from? It wasn’t the Bible. The Sunday Sabbath came from a bunch of men in 325 CE at the Council of Nicea. Yep, a bunch of men overrode your Bible and moved the Sabbath to another day – a day not sanctioned by your Bible-God.

Of course we’ll have to stop everything on Sunday – no working at all if we are to follow this strictly. Electricity will be shut off because workers can’t man the power stations. Hospitals, rescue squads, police stations and other emergency services will be shut down – so if anyone is injured on Sunday – it’s in God’s hands. But that’s okay, because you said above that everything happens for a reason, so if God allows people die on his Sabbath – then so be it. Who are we to question his evil acts?

Of course we’ll have to worry about criminals because the corrections officers will be home on Sunday and no one will be guarding the prisoners. We’ll have to stay at home and won’t be able to go anywhere because nothing will be open – no gas stations, no stores, no supermarkets, no train stations, no airports, no bus terminals, no fast food joints. That means you can’t enjoy that Sunday buffet at Sizzler or Golden Corral anymore – the waiters, waitresses and cooks will be at home.

Then there are the economic impacts of not allowing work on Sunday. 8 hours of lost wages each week for those people struggling to make ends meet. 8 hours of lost income for businesses and communities. 8 hours of lost taxes for governments. That’s a lot of money (in the billions) each Sunday that we stay home in our dark houses with no TV or radio – no electricity or natural gas – nothing.

What does this one have to do with love and moral behavior?

V Honor thy father and thy mother…

That’s okay to live by, but parents aren’t always honorable and sometimes they don’t deserve honor. Will we force children to honor their parents if their parents abuse them physically, mentally or sexually? Will we force the 13yo girl to stay and honor her father that sneaks into her room every night to molest her? Yeah, I guess we will since we want everyone to obey these commandments. We’ll let a few live a life of horror so that the Christians can have their theocratic way.

VI Thou shalt not kill.

Great rule to live by, but it’s not original. Long before the Decalogue societies were striving for this. Of course if we adhere to it strictly… We get rid of the death penalty. We get rid of our military because a nation that doesn’t kill has no reason for a military – either defensive or offensive. We stop the slaughter of animals and all become vegetarians. Of course God gives us plenty of reasons to kill even with this law, doesn’t he? Why bother with this law if God is going to give us a bunch of reasons to kill, anyway? Women that are seduced by men other than their husbands are to be killed. Prostitutes are to be killed. Women who practice black magic are to be killed. Strangers (non-Christians and infidels) that enter the temple are to be killed. Children that disobey are to be killed. People that work even the simplest task on the Sabbath are to be killed. Of course there’s plenty more, but why continue. With all the reasons to kill people, seems rather silly to have commandments number 6. So we have a contradiction – we can’t kill, but we’re given reasons to kill.

We don’t need this one, anyway – we have laws against murdering. Laws against murdering existed before the Decalogue.

VII Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Ok, I can see this for married people – makes sense. This doesn’t have much to do about love. Just because one doesn’t have an affair doesn’t mean one loves their significant other. Many people hate each other but feel too guilty to have an affair. As for moral behavior… are those that have affairs more likely to commit a crime?

How do we reconcile this in our new Ten Commandments following society that you’ve schemed up? Because of number 4 we can’t kill adulterers, even thou the Bible tells us to (at least the woman, anyway). I guess we’ll have to set up house monitors and track everyone so we know if they are copulating outside their marital bed. Yep, so much for civil rights – we have to track everyone to know if they are being faithful or not.

VIII Thou shalt not steal.

Ok, I can see the morality in this one, but it was a law long before the Decalogue in other societies. What took the Jews and the Bible-God so long to catch up to the rest of civilized society? To make this happen we’ll have to really step up either our prisons or our social justice and social action. We’ll have to get rid of all the homeless and hungry – we don’t want those people stealing apples from the farmer or a bottle of formula for their starving babies living in a cardboard box.

IX Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. AKA: Thou shalt not lie.

I guess the love thing works a little bit, and maybe the morality a bit – but not enough to really justify 100% compliance. Sometimes lying is okay, though and sometimes it is even necessary. Compassion leads to a lot of lying – we lie about a medical patient’s condition so they feel better. We lie about how someone looks so that we don’t insult him or her. We lie about how precious that really ugly baby looks so the parents don’t feel bad. Well, so much for the politicians – I guess we’ll lose a representative government… Actually, I think I’m inclined to agree with you on number 9 – I think a brutally honest world would be awesome. Imagine how much fun it will be to finally tell that really ugly kid down the street, “Dude, you are one ugly kid.” Or when our wives ask, “Honey, does this make me look fat?” We can say, “Sweetie, everything makes you look fat because you are fat.” And we can be brutally honest because God told us not to lie – under any circumstances.

X Thou shalt not covet… blah blah blah

Well, so much for capitalism. I guess we’ll have to move over to socialism or communism. Christian Communism – has a nice ring to it, doesn’t it? Why would I covet my neighbor’s ox, anyway? I have a nice car to drive – he can keep his ox. Of course in a non-coveting society I wouldn’t have that car – we’d both have an ox. Um… what does this one have to do with love and moral behavior?

SHELLI: “So, with your frail views and misconceptions about so many things, you have failed to convince me there is no Almighty Creator watching us from afar.”

I wasn’t trying to convince you that there was no almighty creator. You were the one that contacted me trying to convince me that there was one. I was just responding. I’m still waiting for the proof.

SHELLI: “I will pray for your salvation.”

You and a thousand others. It doesn’t bother me – so pray away. I don’t mind if you waste your time.

SHELLI: “Atheists say the Bible is full of errors and contradictions. That may be because MEN wrote it through their own interpretations. Who else is prone to error but humankind?”

Are you fully admitting that the Bible is not the “Word of God,” but is instead the work of men attempting to interpret the world around them and their belief in their god? Are you admitting that the Bible is full or errors, contradictions and inconsistencies? If this is the case, then how do you reconcile what parts of the Bible to believe and what parts not to believe? How can you tell what is authentic and what is not?

SHELLI: “The Bible cannot all be taken literally. People may read it front to back and have so many interpretations of it.”

So how do you know what parts are to be taken literally and what parts are not? What if you choose wrong and follow something as an allegory that should be literal or vice versa? You’d think that an all-powerful god would ensure that the Bible and Apocrypha were easy enough to understand that people would get it without having to interpret it. For an “all-knowing” guy he doesn’t seem that smart, especially considering the source: the Buy Bull.

SHELLI: “You atheists can explain things away as scientifically and logically as you please. However, what do you do when you can’t explain something with practical knowledge?”

Well, unlike the theist, we don’t go off the deep end and proclaim that some invisible man is behind everything we can’t explain. There are many unexplained things, but nothing is unexplainable. Christians fail to see that difference. They immediately say, “God did it,” whenever they can’t explain something right away. The logical person, the person that uses reason, will look for a valid explanation and try to understand the phenomenon. It is for this reason that science has advanced as much as it has.

Can you imagine if Benjamin Franklin had simply left the “God did it” explanation for the phenomenon of lightning? Can you imagine if Thomas Edison had left the “God did it” explanation alone and never messed with filaments and wiring? Can you imagine if the Wright brothers had listened to their local preacher when he said, “If God had meant man to fly he would have given him wings”?

It is the willingness of many men and women throughout history to throw out the “God did it” lunacy and to really analyze what is going on and to discover the true nature of the phenomenon. The supernatural becomes the natural as explanations are found and an understanding of the event is reaches. What if scientists like Bruno, Galileo, Newton and others had listened to the church and their “God did it” version? We would still be living on a flat earth that was the center of the solar system and the sky would be a filament instead of an atmosphere and stars would be pinpricks in the curtain of the filament.

SHELLI: “Face it; the thinking of atheists is VERY limited.”

I’ll face it when you prove it. The only limited thinking I’ve seen is from your end.

SHELLI: “The Bible isn’t just about the stories. It is about the moral teachings of a loving, faithful, Almighty God who created us to have fellowship with Him.”

You just described almost every sacred text of most religions. There’s nothing wrong with looking for the good and moral lessons in the teachings of all religions and philosophies. But when people leave the morality behind and embrace the literalism that is when bigotry and ignorance are born.

SHELLI: “If you want evidence of what happens when you don’t follow His teachings, just look at human history for a good reference.” [sic]

When I look at history what I see is a bunch of bloodthirsty religious people destroying the world because they swear that their God is coming back or that they are doing the work of their God. You are right, when you follow “his teachings” then you end up in a world of bloodshed.

SHELLI: “God does not MAKE anybody kill. God does not kill anyone.”

LOL! You can’t be serious? Have you even read the Bible? There are hundreds of examples of God making people kill and God killing people. What Bible are you reading? Are you reading the Kindergarten version with all the nice pictures and violence and sexuality removed?

SHELLI: “Those are Satan’s lies.”

So Satan wrote the Bible?

SHELLI: “People need to stop blaming God for everything and start taking responsibilities for their OWN actions.”

Here! Here! I agree. We need to stop blaming god and stop giving god credit where it is not do. People need to take responsibility for their own actions; good or bad. We need to smack Pat Robertson on the face when he blames God for 9/11 because God removed “the hand of protection” – instead we need to put the blame where it is supposed to be – on the faith-based terrorists that were doing their god’s bidding. We need to stop blaming god for saving a baby in a tornado when it was the physics and architecture of the building that saved the baby and killed the baby’s family. I’m with you on this one!

SHELLI: “If you have hate in your heart, you are NOT of God.”

Well, you just emptied out at least 50% of the churches in America if you insisted on that.

SHELLI: “So stop dwelling on the Old Testament stories of a vengeful, wrathful God who wanted to punish His unruly, evil children, and focus entirely on His loving guidelines for a happy, healthy, abundant life on this Earth.”

So I should forget about the evil actions of someone and only focus on the good they did? I should forget about the murderer and remember the time that he hugged his son before he killed his son? I should forget that the rapist raped hundreds of women and remember how much he loved his mother?

That is the most ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard anyone suggest. Christians have been trying to separate themselves from the OT God for a long time because they recognize the evil nature of their Bible-God in the OT.

SHELLI: “GOD IS LOVE!”

Unless you don’t love him back – then he’s everything but love.

SHELLI: “Start with the TEN COMMANDMENTS (which belong in the public schools), please!”

How do you think they will affect public schools? Christian schools still deal with crime – so if the Decalogue can’t even cure the ills of Christian schools then what makes you think it will cure public schools? It sounds to me like Christians aren’t accepting responsibility for their own actions. Instead of taking the blame for their evil children they want the school to take the blame because “it doesn’t post the Ten Commandments.” If Christians taught their children at home then there wouldn’t be a need for it in public schools. Right? Or are you suggesting that the Ten Commandments are powerless and meaningless?

SHELLI: “In conclusion, for those who do not believe that free will and divine intervention cannot both happen (again, limited thinking), they can.”

If you can step out of your limited thinking and prove it then we can talk. But if all you can offer is “they can” and stick your tongue out and go “nah nah boo boo” then you’re not going to even make a dent in rational thought.

SHELLI: “God does not directly interfere with our free will, but He can protect us from any harm or danger that may accompany any choices that we make.”

If he intervenes then he nulls and voids our free will. It is through free will that we get into those situations and free will that we get out. If he intervenes then we no longer have free will because we are no longer making the choices. Either we have free will or we don’t. If you admit that he can intervene and save our lives, then he is guilty of not doing it on many examples, such as 9/11.

SHELLI: “Example: a person who chooses to drive while intoxicated, ends up in a potentially fatal car accident, and walks away without a scratch (from a scientific point of view, he absolutely should have died as others in the exact same situation have in the past).”

The only thing this is a good example of is theistic nonsense and ignorance and the willingness to declare, “God did it,” without looking into the cause. Scientists in now way think that drunk drivers should have died. We know why they don’t die. They are so relaxed that their bodies are fluid-like during the physics of the car crash. It is a known fact that people that are relaxed escape car wrecks all the time. The drive will often be injured or dead, but the sleeping passengers come out unscathed. It has nothing to do with God and everything to do with muscle tension and relaxation during strenuous physics. Instead of throwing in “God did it” just because you don’t understand something, why don’t you actually do some research and educate yourself? You’ll be an atheist in no time.

 

Shelli Rebuttal #003:

You obviously do not understand Christianity at all. Trying to describe the peace of God to someone who has never experienced it is like describing a color to them that they have never seen. God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit–all the same thing. I cannot imagine living my life without God. I have overcome child abuse, serious depression, eating disorders, date rape, school taunting, and I am so much stronger and wiser than I have ever been. I forgive my father, and I still honor him by acknowledging that he is my father. However, I choose not to have a relationship with him. I forgive the guy who got drunk and sexually assaulted me, but I choose to be his friend no longer. I forgive the people who have made fun of me over the years because I am an intelligent, gifted person. Why harbor resentment and anger? There is no point. Without God’s grace, I could not have survived these ordeals. It is a miracle I am still here. So, please don’t call me ignorant of anything. Prayers have helped me a lot. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS. Imagine if someone in your family had gone through all this trauma. You fear the worst for them. What do you do if you cannot lean on a higher power than yourself? What kind of comfort can you possibly have if you have no assurance that there is a higher power than yourself in absolute control of everything? My life was IN DANGER! I was practically a DEAD WOMAN! I WAS SKIN AND BONES. MY SPIRIT WAS DYING. Unless you experience these kinds of things yourself, you have no idea about the true power of the Good Lord Above. His thoughts are not ours, his ways are not ours. This is a physical world where nothing or no one is going to be perfect. What IS perfect is God’s Kingdom in eternity. If Earth was perfect, Earth would be Heaven. There would be no need for a Savior. If you hear the gospel of Christ and do not accept it, you will be separated from God forever. As for me, I put God first in my life, I do not swear falsely by His name, I do not steal, I do not murder, I do not spread rumors, I do not have sex outside of marriage (and I am still single), I honor my father and mother, I do not envy what other people have (I focus on being the best I can be), and well, every day is a Sabbath for me (I am constantly worshipping the Lord, even as I work). I am blessed! Imagine that! Having gone through all that hell on Earth, I still consider myself truly blessed! THAT IS TRUE STRENGTH AND GRACE! I could be angry and bitter about life and diss God like a lot of people do, but I don’t! HE IS THE REASON WHY I AM HERE! There are so many other stories out there like this, too. Instead of slandering Christianity and the Bible, why don’t you investigate some of these stories and the people behind them? They will definitely give you a different perspective on life. There is a whole lot more to life than what you can see. You just can’t find reason with everything. Atheists have SO much more to learn. Get out of your cardboard boxes, stop lingering on the surface, and dive into the more profound truths beneath the surface. Make sure you have enough oxygen. It is a LONG way down. GOD BLESS.

NOTE: At this point Shelli’s emails increased from a 12 font to a bold 24 font. I’ll spare you the 24-font bold text.

I WILL NEVER, EVER BE AN ATHEIST! You are in the minority in this country. This is “one nation under God”, and that is how it will always be! Regarding your comment about my “religion prozac”, medicine may heal the body but not the soul. It takes a hell of a lot more to fix a broken spirit. Unless you have been that low, you can’t even imagine what it is like. So I find that comment really offensive. Christianity is a “walk with the Lord”. Plain and simple. You will face your day of judgment when you leave this place. Believe me, I wouldn’t want to be in your shoes. God Bless you. You need it.

By the way, who officiates at an atheist’s wedding (2 words that never should go together, like gay priest), the mailman? It isn’t a real marriage if there is no man of the cloth to perform the ceremony, uniting a man and woman in HOLY matrimony. Otherwise, we would all be married to our first grade crushes when we “played wedding” in our backyards. How does it feel to know your marriage is just a piece of paper given to you by the state to acknowledge that you just said a couple words to the other person, agreeing to be his or her spouse? What a joke. If you are not a believer in the Creator, don’t make a mockery of a sacrament. If there is no God in your life, there is no marriage. Husbands and wives are united to serve the Lord and each other and to train up their children in His ways. That is what the Bible says. Also, on a different note, I will chalk up my paranormal experiences to be a figment of my very active “limited” imagination. I guess everyone’s bedroom door just opens by itself in front of their very eyes when no one is around…..and all windows are closed. Well, rational thought tells me, “Hey, the wood was once a tree, and trees are alive.” That explains it! LMAO.

What about strange footsteps when no one is around? How about an invisible tap on the shoulder? Since my grandfather died, my grandmother’s phone rings once every night at the same time (around 2 A.M.) Explain it……. There are countless other stories like this out there. So are we all just looney….and you atheists aren’t?

 

Response to Shelli #003:

Everything you have said reinforces the idea that some people have a psychological need for religious belief. That’s okay – it’s what you need and that helps to stabilize you. Religion is your Prozac and I support you in your quest for stability: even if it means belief in a god to give you a warm fuzzy.

Most people that proselytize to me seem to be ex-drug addicts, ex-abuse victims, ex-rape victims that have “seen god’s love.”

That’s not a coincidence. These people NEED religion in their lives to give them psychological balance and to feel needed and welcome. That’s okay.

I wish you the best in your religious Prozac.

SHELLI: “I WILL NEVER, EVER BE AN ATHEIST!”

Actually you were an atheist when you were a baby. You lacked a belief in gods. It wasn’t until you were indoctrinated into religion by your parents and peers that you stopped being an atheist. So you can drop the “never” from your statement. You need religion in your life for stabilization and that’s okay. More power to you.

SHELLI: “You are in the minority in this country.”

Yes, we are one minority in this country. Christianity is losing ground every year in America as immigrants bring their own religions into this country and make us a truly pluralistic society. Hinduism, Paganism, Islam, atheism, Buddhism, Unitarian Universalism, Judaism, and many others are on the rise. As of last year atheist comprised 14% of the American population, which is roughly 27 million atheists in the United States. When you add the other religions, then Christianity is now just above 60%. You’re losing your ranks and may not be the majority much longer. I have to admit that I look forward to the day when the pluralistic nature of religion in America truly makes it a religiously free nation and separation of church and state is no longer under attack by the “majority mob” that is called Christianity.

SHELLI: “This is “one nation under God”, and that is how it will always be!”

Well, that’s been the official motto since the 1950’s, anyway. Can you please quote me the part in the United States Constitution that says that?

SHELLI: “Regarding your comment about my “religion prozac”, medicine may heal the body but not the soul.”

You obviously let your anger prevent you from understanding what I was saying. Instead of taking medicine, you are using religion to accomplish the same thing. You are using “religious Prozac” instead of taking pills. You are using religion to calm you down and to appease your fears and anxieties. You are not alone. If that is what makes you feel better, then more power to you.

SHELLI: “Unless you have been that low, you can’t even imagine what it is like.”

I’ve been low and I’ve known people that have been that low and lower. That is why I hold no animosity against those that use religion as a form of “spiritual Prozac” (is that better?). They need it and it helps them cope – so, as I said before, more power to them.

SHELLI: “So I find that comment really offensive.”

That’s probably because you misunderstood what I was saying, but nonetheless, I apologize for offending you. You are using religion as a means to cope with your past bad experiences and dreadful life that you have led. I’m sorry that you had to go through all that. It’s a shame that such things have to happen to people. If you need religion to cope with those past experiences, then I support you. Instead of seeking a doctor and taking Prozac, you are using religion as your Prozac. You are using religion to help you deal with your past issues and events.

SHELLI: “You will face your day of judgment when you leave this place.”

Yeah, I’m going to have a lot of explaining to do to Zeus. He’s really going to be pissed that we think he’s nothing more than a mythological creature. Of course I’ll really be bummed if I have to explain myself to Zoroaster. Or even worse, what if I have to explain myself to Mithras? Mithras is even worse than your Bible-God!

SHELLI: “By the way, who officiates at an atheist’s wedding (2 words that never should go together, like gay priest), the mailman?” [sic]

He’s called a Justice of the Peace, and is an official representative of the state in which you are getting married.

SHELLI: “It isn’t a real marriage if there is no man of the cloth to perform the ceremony, uniting a man and woman in HOLY matrimony.”

A wedding and a religious wedding are two separate things. Civilizations were uniting couples to live together before Christian marriage came around. Pagans married, Buddhists married, Confucians married. They may not have called it “marriage,” but the concept was the same – uniting two people that loved each other to live together and raise children together. The idea of monogamy was viewed as better for the society. Religion hijacked the concept after it was developed by societies.

SHELLI: “Otherwise, we would all be married to our first grade crushes when we “played wedding” in our backyards.”

That’s pretty funny considering that Christianity was one of the biggest proponents of marrying girls after their first menstrual cycle so that they could “go forth and bear fruit.”

SHELLI: “How does it feel to know your marriage is just a piece of paper given to you by the state to acknowledge that you just said a couple words to the other person, agreeing to be his or her spouse?”

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you have the same piece of paper. It doesn’t matter if you get married in the church or not, you still have to have a marriage license. You can get married in the church and it isn’t legal unless you have the marriage license. The state has granted authority to some ministers to officiate the license, but most couples have to apply for their license and present it to their minister before the wedding takes place. The ministerial wedding has no legal foundation on its own. You cannot do your taxes as a married couple unless you have a marriage license. So if you think that the piece of paper is a joke, then it only displays your ignorance of the subject matter.

SHELLI: “If you are not a believer in the Creator, don’t make a mockery of a sacrament.”

Why not? I have every right to mock it, poke fun of it, ridicule it, criticize it and otherwise show it for the silliness that it is. Just as you have every right to do the same to atheism. The difference between us is that I respect your right to ridicule atheism.

SHELLI: “If there is no God in your life, there is no marriage.”

Again, this shows your ignorance of the subject. Civilizations were uniting couples long before religion hijacked the uniting process and made a religious ceremony out of it. Do you recognize marriages of other religions? Do you recognize Hindu weddings or Jewish weddings? Or do just Christian weddings count?

SHELLI: “Husbands and wives are united to serve the Lord and each other and to train up their children in His ways.”

That is the Christian belief, yes. Fortunately for the rest of society, Christian dogma and doctrine cannot be forced on everyone else. We have the secular and non-religious constitution to thank for that.

SHELLI: “I guess everyone’s bedroom door just opens by itself in front of their very eyes when no one is around…..and all windows are closed. Well, rational thought tells me, “Hey, the wood was once a tree, and trees are alive.” That explains it! LMAO.”

You can explain it anyway you want, but until you have rationally investigated the phenomenon and eliminated all other possibilities, then you are just chalking it up to “god did it” or “ghosts did it” without any reason to do so. Doors close all the times by themselves – it doesn’t take a breeze to do it. Vibrations from passing vehicles can cause doors to close. A shift in a house’s foundation can cause doors that used to stand ajar to suddenly start closing on their own. Did you even investigate any of these possibilities or did you jump immediately on the supernatural bandwagon?

SHELLI: “There are countless other stories like this out there. So are we all just looney [sic]….and you atheists aren’t?”

No, you’re not all just loony. What everyone does is immediately jump to the supernatural explanation without bothering to even investigate any other possibility. There are many unexplained things – but nothing is unexplainable. Most people don’t understand that concept. Most of the unexplained events in my life have been explained since I actually started to investigate them and look for explanations within physics and the natural world. Most people would rather be lazy and chalk them up to ghosts and god. Suit yourself if mental laziness is your forte.

Shelli Rebuttal #004:

NOTE: Shelli’s email remained at a bold 24 font.

BLAIR: “You can explain it anyway you want, but until you have rationally investigated the phenomenon and eliminated all other possibilities, then you are just chalking it up to “god did it” or “ghosts did it” without any reason to do so. Doors close all the times by themselves – it doesn’t take a breeze to do it. Vibrations from passing vehicles can cause doors to close. A shift in a house’s foundation can cause doors that used to stand ajar to suddenly start closing on their own. Did you even investigate any of these possibilities or did you jump immediately on the supernatural bandwagon?”

I said my door opened, not closed, by itself. My bedroom is on the second floor, and we live on a quiet street. It opened slowly as if someone was pushing it lightly. It didn’t open a crack. It opened halfway.

Regarding your comment about my “religion prozac”, medicine may heal the body but not the soul.

BLAIR: “You obviously let your anger prevent you from understanding what I was saying. Instead of taking medicine, you are using religion to accomplish the same thing. You are using “religious Prozac” instead of taking pills. You are using religion to calm you down and to appease your fears and anxieties. You are not alone. If that is what makes you feel better, then more power to you.”

I have been on Prozac, Clonopin, Zyprexa, Buspar, and Risperdal. Now I have been on Celexa for a year. I have seen doctors since I was 19, and pills just were never enough. Like I said, they heal my “chemical imbalances”, but it does not heal the hurt I still feel deep down in my soul. I am not an angry person. I just can’t believe so many people out there are so blind to the love and presence of God. True devoted Christians are the nicest people you will ever meet because the character of Jesus just shines through them. It is for real. I support the Franciscan Missions, St. Matthew’s Churches, Life-Study Fellowship, ASPCA, the US Humane Society, Defenders of Wildlife, World Wildlife Fund, and PETA….all on limited income while I have been recovering from years of emotional and spiritual hell. I am an actress and writer, too. Before I die, the whole world will know my name, and they will remember me as a gifted, compassionate person…a humanitarian. I possess a strength and grace that can only come from one source…God. Not “Bible God”, just God. I am waiting for the day when an atheist actually goes out and makes such blessed contributions to the world. Usually, they are too busy spitting at it and everyone in it….especially Christians who put other’s needs in front of their own. We don’t deserve that.

 

Response to Shelli #004:

SHELLI: “I said my door opened, not closed, by itself. My bedroom is on the second floor, and we live on a quiet street. It opened slowly as if someone was pushing it lightly. It didn’t open a crack. It opened halfway.”

Opened or closed it doesn’t matter. Doors creep for very natural reasons. Your unwillingness to investigate a rational cause and to jump on the supernatural is just another indication of your need for religion. You need it – you need the simple answer and reassurance that comes with believing that fairy tales are true.

SHELLI: “True devoted Christians are the nicest people you will ever meet because the character of Jesus just shines through them.”

Actually, in my experience it is the “true devoted Christians” that are the nastiest people I’ve ever known. It is the moderates that are friendly. I find this to be the case in every religion. The Fundamentalists are the troublemakers, the haters, the terrorists and all those other nasty things. It is the “true devoted Christian” that blows up abortion clinics and assassinates abortion providers. It is “true devoted Christians” that beat up homosexuals and sometimes kill them. It is “true devoted Christians” that harass non-Christians and threaten them and plant crosses in their yards.

SHELLI: “Before I die, the whole world will know my name, and they will remember me as a gifted, compassionate person…a humanitarian.”

Obviously we’ve reached a point beyond just a need for religion. We’re dealing with a need for recognition and sympathy. You didn’t get it from me and so you’re pissed off. That’s fine. Stay on your meds and I wish you the best in recovering. Based on your past, your “testimony” and what you say I can assure that you are, indeed, a “true devoted Christian.”

SHELLI: “We don’t deserve that.”

Not all of you do – but many of you do.

Shelli Rebuttal #005:

NOTE: Shelli’s email remained at 24 font.

BLAIR: “Actually, in my experience it is the “true devoted Christians” that are the nastiest people I’ve ever known. It is the moderates that are friendly. I find this to be the case in every religion. The Fundamentalists are the troublemakers, the haters, the terrorists and all those other nasty things. It is the “true devoted Christian” that blows up abortion clinics and assassinates abortion providers. It is “true devoted Christians” that beat up homosexuals and sometimes kill them. It is “true devoted Christians” that harass non-Christians and threaten them and plant crosses in their yards.”

True, devoted Christians do not kill, hate, or do anything that you have mentioned. We follow the Ten Commandments to the best of our ability. People who kill and hate are not Christians, though they may claim to be. They are just evil and have a distorted view of Christianity. I don’t need your sympathy or anyone else’s. I just want to serve the Lord by doing good to all. I know what I have experienced in life. I know what the truth is. If you don’t, you will find out eventually. All through my life, people have let me down, but God never has. Face it, you have no concept of what the meaning of life is, and no rationality of science will ever explain why we came into existence in the first place. Go chew on that one for a while. People in this world have to choose to be good, or evil will prevail. It certainly won’t be God’s fault. It will be ours alone. That is why we have free will. Until someone explains why the universe began, why our bodies are so intricately designed, why our organs communicate so well, why there is such a diversity of species, why miracles happen…..then I will believe that life was all just a big random “accident”. It just isn’t rational to believe that life created itself.

  • Charles Manson—Atheist
  • Columbine Shooters—Atheists
  • 9/11 Terrorists—Islamics
  • Adolf Hitler—Atheist
  • Czars of Russia—Atheists
  • Josef Stalin—Atheist
  • Benito Mussolini—Atheist
  • Fidel Castro—Atheist
  • Saddam Hussein—Islamic
  • Osama Bin Laden—Islamic
  • Timothy McVeigh—Atheist
  • Ted Bundy—Atheist

Where are all the Christians you said who have committed heinous crimes of murder? I can’t think of any practicing Jesus-loving Christians who have been serial killers or rapists. Face it, the worst villains in human history have been anything but Christian.

Just out of curiosity, do you actually tell little children that there is no God or Heaven and that they are going to end up in a cold box six feet under? That is just cruel…and a lie. What would an atheist even say to a terminally ill child lying in the hospital, taking his or her last breaths of life? I think the last thing anyone would want is an atheist at their bedside. I have actually visited an atheist chatroom and a Christian chatroom. Here is what I learned from observing the conversations in both groups:

  • Atheists swear a lot and bash other people’s beliefs…especially Christians’.
  • Atheists seem angry and bitter about life in general.
  • They talk about sex a lot.
  • Atheists say offering prayers for them is hatred.
  • Christians have very positive outlooks on life and show genuine compassion for others, even atheists.
  • They do not swear, curse, etc.
  • They share inspirational scriptures from the Bible that are very uplifting.
  • Christians offer prayers for everyone, which is the best gift you can give to someone.

Simply put, I felt much happier in the Christian chatroom, and I was almost in tears in the atheist one.

Your actions don’t make you a Christian. It is what is in your heart. There is also nothing more precious than a little child pointing to his or her heart and saying, “Jesus is right here.”

GOD BLESS :)

 

Response to Shelli #005:

I’m not sure where you are getting your information from, but we’ll clear up your mistakes. First of all, I never played the “guilty by association” card as you have done. The reason I didn’t play it is because we are all “guilty by association.” For every belief, religion, creed, race, ethnicity, philosophy, etc, there is someone out there in history past that has done bad things as a representative of that particular component. That doesn’t mean it was the driving force or the reason for the heinous activity, though.

For example, while Pol Pot was an atheist, he wasn’t killing anyone “for atheism.” However, during the Crusades, the murderous hordes were specifically killing people “for Christianity.”

But, I’m not going to play the guilty by association card as you have done, because your pile stinks just as much.

However, I did want to clear up a few of your errors.

Adolf Hitler was a Christian. He was a practicing Lutheran. He wanted to destroy the hierarchy of the church because he thought it was too liberal. Hitler wanted the church to be more literal in its views of the Bible. Hitler thought that by killing the Jews he was finishing the work of Christ. That is why he also killed homosexuals – because the Bible said they were an abomination.

Timothy McVeigh was not an atheist, either. He was involved in a state militia that embraces Christianity. He prayed the night before he bombed the federal building and prayed after he was captured, as was reported by the correctional officers and the minister that visited him in prison.

Okay, what the hell, since you’ve thrown out the guilty by association card – I’ll throw it out too.

  • Eric Rudolph — Christian
  • Hitler — Lutheran Christian
  • The Menendez Brothers — Christian
  • Salem Townspeople — Christian
  • Conquistadors — Christian
  • Crusaders — Christian
  • Inquisition — Christian
  • Susan Smith — Christian
  • Texas mother that drowned her children — Christian
  • Army of God — Christian
  • Christian Identity — Christian
  • KKK — Christian
  • Militia — Christian

The list goes on of course. That is why we don’t play the “guilty by association” card – because we can all be found guilty by such. That is why we judge not by the actions of the past, but by the theology itself. Is the theology sound? When things of the past come up, they come up in a theological context: What about the theology caused such events?

Of course any time someone points out the heinous acts of Christians then you just say, “They weren’t REAL Christians” or “They weren’t TRUE Christians.” How do you know that they weren’t the real and true ones and that you’re not the fraud? After all, the Bible is full of acts committed in the name of God and Jesus that are equally and more heinous than any man has done.

A terminally ill child that is lying in the hospital will hear from an atheist what that child wants to hear. If the child believes he or she is going to heaven, then the atheist has the moral upstanding to let that child die thinking just that.

When my children asked about death they were told what everyone believes. They were told about Christian beliefs, Islamic beliefs, Hindu beliefs, Buddhist beliefs and more, as well as the scientific facts. Once they have all the information then they can make an educated decision on their own.

You know, one thing you told me a while ago is that because of my interest in Christianity that I must be seeking Jesus. Yet, what I’m reading from you is that you have a very keen interest in atheism. You visit atheism web pages, you enter atheism chat rooms and you engage in conversations with atheists. Sounds to me like you’re asking the right questions. You’ll be an atheist in no time.

Shelli Rebuttal #006:

NOTE: Shelli’s email are now coming in at a bolded 36 font with more and more ALL CAPS.

I WiLL NEVER BE AN ATHEIST, AND I AM NOT THE FRAUD. I FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS…..NOT MEN. Those horrible people that committed such heinous crimes were not Christians. They are the frauds. How can you even try to rationalize what Hitler did? He was a madman. He was a Christian that wanted to kill Jews? Well, I guess he really WAS a fraud because Jesus is a Jew. Therefore, if he hated Jews, he hated Jesus. That means he was not a Christian. Jesus Christ preached love and respect for all mankind. That is the truth, and I am sticking to it.

And you think I will be an atheist how??????? I am no fool.

 

Response to Shelli #006:

When you start emailing me in all caps and 36-point font, I realize that your emotions have gotten the better of you and you can no longer engage in intelligent conversation.

I wish you the best of luck in your efforts to end your psychological issues and emotional scars from your past. Whether you do this via modern medicine or religion is of no interest to me – as long as you achieve what you want to achieve.

The best of luck,
Blair Scott

NOTE: It was too bad that I had to terminate the “debate.” It was getting entertaining, but she was obviously losing her cool and control. If what she was saying was true about her mental illness, I felt it better to terminate the “debate” – it was the moral thing to do.

 

Shelli Rebuttal #007:

NOTE: Shelli contacted me again out of the blue with this one. What the heck, let’s see where this one goes…

Mr. Scott, I pose a more interesting question for you and all others out there who claim that “religion” is the cause of the world’s problems. Why are MOST of the crimes out there perpetrated by men? Why are men (or boys) shooting up our schools, blowing up our buildings with bombs and planes, forming heinous gangs like the Ku Klux Klan, murdering abortion doctors, torturing our precious animals, teaching children how to be terrorists, starting world wars, murdering homosexuals, raping women, kidnapping and sexually molesting children, distributing pornography, executing prisoners, polluting our oceans with toxic chemicals, and exterminating endangered species???

When you really get down to the bottom of it, the world would be a much more peaceful place if all the men just vanished off the face of the earth.

Religion vs Men
What is the real problem?
Hold on….did not men create religion in the first place?
Seek Jesus Christ….NOT religion.
Amen.

 

Response to Shelli #007:

SHELLI: “Why are MOST of the crimes out there perpetrated by men?”

Since women have been “liberated,” the numbers of crimes committed by women are now on the rise significantly. Most states have had to build larger prisons to house their female inmates (I work with the Department of Corrections, so I can attest to this personally). Perhaps the issue is not sexuality or even sexual orientation, but more importantly, an issue of access and equality? Or for that matter, why is it that most crimes seem to be committed by African-Americans? Perhaps you are asking the wrong question?

Of course I realize what you are trying to do. While admirable, that’s about all it is – it’s still a straw man and has no bearing on the issue at hand.

SHELLI: “Why are men (or boys) shooting up our schools…”

Because the Christian kids are picking on them and being bullies? The football team that prays before each game is the same team that beats the kid up and teases him. Of course it’s interesting to note that today’s most notorious school shooters, those from Columbine, attended church. Hmm…

SHELLI: “…blowing up our buildings with bombs and planes…”

Religion does that and female suicide bombers are on the rise. Only a belief in an afterlife could motivate someone to commit suicide in such a manner, and that stems from religion and religious fundamentalism. There are no atheist suicide bombers.

SHELLI: “…forming heinous gangs like the Ku Klux Klan…”

You mean the Christian hate group? You do know that the KKK is a Christian organization, don’t you? You do know that the KKK uses the same phrase that you do, “Jesus is a relationship, not a religion?” The largest hate groups in America are Christian organizations.

SHELLI: “…murdering abortion doctors…”

Christians do that, too. The only reason ever given by Christian terrorists for blowing up abortion clinics and assassinating abortion providers is… the Bible and Jesus.

SHELLI: “…torturing our precious animals…”

I’m not sure what context you’re referring to here. If you mean through animal testing, then that’s not a crime, so it doesn’t apply. If you mean through sacrifices, etc, then it is religion that calls for the sacrificing of animals on an altar. The Bible is full of not just examples of animal sacrifice, but specific instructions on how to do it – on how to make an “odor pleasing to the Lord.”

SHELLI: “…teaching children how to be terrorists…”

Again, you have to blame religion on this one. There are no atheist suicide bombers or terrorists. There are Christian terrorists, Islamic terrorists, Hindu terrorists, Jewish terrorists, and others, but no atheist terrorists. Terrorism is a faith-based initiative.

SHELLI: “…starting world wars…”

Most conflicts around the world revolved around religion or a creed that became religious in nature (such as fascism, for example). The issue is brainwashing and indoctrination – keeping the flock in line. Of course the main reason that men are the cause of wars is because women were not in positions of power to start any. Of course we can’t forget Joan of Arc, right?

SHELLI: “…murdering homosexuals…”

Christians are doing that. Muslims are doing that. Religion is doing that – it is religious bigotry that causes such violence against homosexuals and lesbians. Of course I would remind you that there have been several instances of lesbians being beat up by Christians girls, especially in locker rooms in schools.

SHELLI: “…raping women…”

Funny, but you’re 20 times more likely to be raped in the United States than any other country in the world. Supposedly this is a “Christian nation,” which is puritanical in nature when it comes to human sexuality, and yet our rape instances are astronomical. Go where human sexuality is open and the immoral puritanical attitude is nothing more than a memory of the Dark Ages, the rape numbers are extremely low. When I lived in Italy we never heard of rapes and child molestation from the local Italians (even with all the priests and bishops walking around Catholicville). When we did hear about it, it was usually an American that did it.

There have been instances of women raping women, and even women raping men. But in a sexually repressed, puritanical society, one will see an increase in rapes. One way to discourage that is to legalize prostitution; it’s a way to decrease testosterone overbuild.

SHELLI: “…kidnapping and sexually molesting children…”

You mean like Catholic priests and pastors? The last eight documented cases in Alabama have been molestations of children by priests and pastors in churches around the state.

SHELLI: “…distributing pornography…”

Pornography is not a crime, so I’m not sure how it fits in your statement. According to Playboy Magazine, the majority of rentals of pornography videos are by women, not men. Go figure…

SHELLI: “…executing prisoners…”

The largest supporter of the death penalty is the religious right. The Bible is clear about stoning people to death and the phrase “eye for an eye” is a popular one from that violent book. The execution of prisoners in Texas is practically a religious experience for them down there. Christianity and other religions have pushed the execution of prisoners for a long time. Ironic that Christianity pushes the execution of prisoners, considering they always complain about Christians being executed as prisoners during the reign of Rome (remember the lions?).

SHELLI: “…polluting our oceans with toxic chemicals…”

Maybe you should ask Jerry Falwell this question. He has said repeatedly that Christians should not concern themselves with the environment. Why would he say that? He says it because the belief that Jesus is coming back makes caring for the earth irrelevant. Why care for the Earth if Jesus is coming back to make the place peaceful for 3,000 years? Why bother tending the oceans and forests if the rapture is going to happen any minute now? This form of Armageddonomics has led to where we are today: a planet festering with people that don’t care about because they are waiting for their messiah to return. Did you know that according to religious polls and environmental polls, that the majority of environmentalists are not Christians? Most environmentalists are spiritualists (New Age, Wicca, Buddhism, etc).

SHELLI: “…and exterminating endangered species?”

See the answer to the above. Why care about endangered species if Jesus is coming back? Again, most conservationists are not Christians – they tend to be those that are in-tune with Mother Nature and worshipers of earth-centered religions such as Wicca.

SHELLI: “When you really get down to the bottom of it, the world would be a much more peaceful place if all the men just vanished off the face of the earth.”

Of course that would only last for about 100 years before the species died off from the lack of sperm.

Men were in power for the last eons, so they were the ones making the decisions. Now that women are gaining equality worldwide, you will begin to see more and more of these things attributed to women. It’s not an issue of aggressiveness based on the sexes, but an issue of power availability. Why do you think all the leaders that are mentioned in the Bible are men? The Bible says that women are to be subservient to men and to not talk in church. Do you follow that rule? If you’ve ever talked in church or shown your hair in church then you’re going to Hell, because you’re an abomination unto the Lord. Sucks to be a woman in Christianity… where women’s rights are still an ongoing issue.

The real issue is religion, either deified or not. You can call it a “relationship” all you want, but the blood spilt in the name of that relationship is measured in tons, not pints, or ounces.

Perhaps you can clear something up for me? The Bible Belt, which is the most religious section of the United States, is also the most troubled section of the United States. The Bible Belt has the highest murder rate in the country, the highest rape and molestation rates, the highest divorce rates, the highest high school dropout rates, the highest infant mortality rates, the highest drug use rates, the highest teen pregnancy rates, and the highest misdemeanor crime rates.

Why do you think that is?

Shelli Rebuttal #008:

NOTE: My last response to Shelli got me eight different emails. I’ve combined them all into one rebuttal and I responded to all of them as one email, so this one is going to be a little long.

Email #001 (in 18 font)

Mr. Scott, let me put it to you this way. If a person does not walk in the ways of Jesus Christ, he or she is not a Christian. Period. Have you ever heard of wolves in sheep’s clothing? That would classify the KKK and others who claim that they are killing in the name of Jesus. Jesus never commanded anyone to murder….but to love and respect your fellow man. It is that simple. I don’t know why people nowadays have to make Christianity such a complex issue. Believe me, America is NOT a Christian nation whatsoever. No way. I wish it was. If America was a Christian nation, there would be no murder (including abortion), rape, adultery, etc. You want to see a poster Christian woman, just look at me. I don’t drink, don’t smoke, don’t do drugs, don’t have sex, and I support wonderful charities:

  • World Wildlife Fund
  • National Wildlife Federation
  • Defenders of Wildlife
  • ASPCA
  • PETA
  • US Humane Society
  • Guiding Eyes For the Blind
  • Franciscan Mission Associates
  • Eastern Paralyzed Veterans Association
  • North Shore Animal League America
  • Natiional Humane Education Society
  • International Fund For Animal Welfare
  • The Nature Conservancy
  • Life-Study Fellowship
  • St. Matthew’s Churches

My love and kindness comes from the Lord. I commit all my acts of love to the Lord. I give in His Holy Name. There is no such thing as murder in the name of Jesus. That is an abomination of everything that He stands for. Those kind of people are driven by Satan. False prophets. Wolves in sheep’s clothing. Going to church does NOT make you a Christian. It is the love and compassion that dwells in the human heart. Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ….not a religion. Religion is man-made. Christianity is the only faith that is not man-made. Religions are ungodly. My friend, you need to re-read the New Testament. There is no such thing as “an eye for an eye” in Christianity. I feel sorry for you that you think prostitution should be legalized. That is an ugly profession that inevitably spreads disease and destruction to everyone. You know what suppresses sexual desires and sin? Focusing on the Lord Jesus Christ AT ALL TIMES! Take your eyes away from Him, you will most likely sin (Catholic priests). By the way, what is this about not talking in church? Everytime I have been to a church, I have seen nothing but joyful, smiling faces engrossed in pleasant conversations. It is great to be a Christian woman! I feel so free and at peace! It must really suck to be an atheist because whether you know it or not, you have no assurance of anything. You are looking at the world through a cardboard box with peep holes. You aren’t seeing the big picture. There is so much evidence of God’s presence, how can you possibly miss it? A fool says in his heart there is no God. God Bless you, Mr. Scott. Remember to put others’ needs before your own. Support as many charities as you can. We are here to serve, not to be served. You become rich by giving. So whether you live on 200 dollars a year or 100,000, GIVE. The Lord will bless you for it. What you give will be returned to you hundredfold. AMEN.

Email #2

Oh, I forgot. Just wanted to remind you that the two Columbine shooters were both atheists. They asked Cassie Bernall if she believed in God or not. She said ‘yes’, and they blew her head off. God Bless her precious soul.

Email #3

And as for torturing animals, I am mainly referring to the horrible people who are randomly killing stray dogs and cats, even precious household pets. These perpetrators are always men, and these ARE crimes punishable by law. I should know. I am an ASPCA and Humane Society member. We are also working to stop animal testing COMPLETELY. It is a heinous, needless practice.

Email #4

Accountability is up to the age of 12. Then you are responsible for your actions in the eyes of God.

Email #5

Believe me, Mr. Scott, your answers are far more entertaining than anyone else’s. I hope you go to the movies a lot because you will soon be seeing a lot of me. I never had a mental illness. I have an autistic spectrum disorder called Asperger’s Syndrome, which incurs such symptoms as depression. Do a search on the Internet, and you will find evidence that we are very highly intelligent and have ultra-sensitivity. Basically, we have sensory abilities far beyond the average person. We have a superior sense of hearing and of touch. I cannot attend concerts because of the noise. I don’t like the feel of baggy clothing, so I am always wearing tank tops and shorts around the house. No socks ever. So, I can tell you for certain that there is another dimension in existence beyond this one. Again, I have never had a mental illness. I am not schizo, manic, or whatever. I am a perfectly logical and sensible person. This is not a laughable condition. It originates in childhood. No known cause. I am kind of offended that you were mocking me on your website. Do you normally make fun of “autistic” people who know a heck of a lot more than you ever will?

NOTE: email switches to 36-font at this point)

OH, AND I OFTEN WRITE IN CAPS AT 36 FONT BECAUSE I THINK IT IS FUN. SOMETIMES I DO IT IN DIFFERENT COLORS.

(end 36-font)

So, stop analyzing everything about me. It is, however, very entertaining to see how “OFF” you are on just about everything. If you are so smart, scientific, and able to read people with that wacky atheist mind of yours, describe what I look like.

Email #6

I am also offended that you were entertained by my accounts of being raped, abused, and suffering from eating disorders. Typical atheist. Arrogant and sarcastic, always getting your kicks out of mocking nice people, especially Christians. There is this thing in Christianity called being humble. We admit to everyone that we don’t know all the answers, but we trust God anyway. It is called faith. You atheists think there is no higher intelligence out there than man, and you claim to know everything. Science is all speculation and proving one’s theories. What you can’t find a logical answer to, you make up. There were no witnesses to the creation of the universe. At least people witnessed Jesus. Stop the arrogance, and ask God for a new purpose in your life. “Pride goeth before destruction.” “You reap what you sow.”

P.S. A new whale species was just discovered. How did science miss that??? Remember the coelacanth? Fisherman caught one when it was believed to be extinct for millions of years. Even the giant panda was believed to be a myth until they were discovered. So, how can you say for certain that there is no God and call people crazy when they have experienced evidence of an afterlife, even though you have not? Apparently, they have seen the truth, and you haven’t. There have been so many reports of people being miraculously cured of terminal illnesses, and the doctors even confirmed that medically, there had been no hope for their recovery. I am talking about people who were stricken with cancer all over their bodies, and once they were prayed for, immediately began to heal. Again, do some research on these accounts.

Email #7

You said:

BLAIR: “I do not hate theists. I am a firm proponent of the Constitution of the United States.”

Then you say:

BLAIR: “There is only one time that I hate theists and that is when theists use their theistic beliefs as a means to justify the start of war, spread hatred, spill blood or trample on the rights of others. The theists that I hate are the theists that kill abortion clinic doctors. The theists that I hate are the theists that kill anything or anyone and say they did it because their God told them to. The theists that I hate are the theists that use the blind faith of the masses to create havoc, chaos and bloodshed.”

NOTE: Email switches to 24-font

Why do you say you don’t hate theists, and then a few sentences later, you say you do?

You either hate, or you don’t. Which is it? Proves my theory that atheists are haters. As a Christian, I absolutely do NOT like sin at all. However, I still love the people. We are taught to love our enemies but not necessarily what they do. Personally, I don’t think love and hate can exist inside the same heart.

(end 24 font)

Email #8

You said:

BLAIR: “Marriage has nothing to do with God, even if the ceremony does for a lot of people. Marriage is about two people that love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together in a monogamous relationship. The theistic view of no sex before marriage and no cohabitation prior to marriage actually sets marriage up to fail. How do you know that you can live with someone for the rest of your life if you have no experience in living with them or experience in sexuality with them? No matter what theists say – sex and sexuality are a major part of any marriage.”

Studies have shown that premarital cohabitation and sex increase the likelihood of a divorce. When you fall in love with someone, it is unconditional…which means that you still love the other person no matter how many bad habits they have or how mediocre they are in bed. Those are petty things that can be improved. As I always say, “Don’t wait for the one you think you can live with, but wait for the one you cannot live without.”

That is true love….something atheists cannot even comprehend. You have demonstrated that by your own foolish words.Another note to you: Multiple partners before marriage can lead to serious emotional scars that may very well be carried into the relationship with your spouse and may ultimately destroy it. Whereas, a virgin will have no such “ghosts of past lovers” hovering over her or his head. That is a major plus for the relationship! It is easier to split with someone that you haven’t slept with than with one that you have. Sex was designed by God for the marriage bed only. It all makes sense. Visit some distraught pregnant teens sometime who do not know who their babies’ fathers are. Think of all the pain suffered by them, their families, friends, and future children. A person who waits till marriage will never have to deal with that kind of mayhem and heartbreak. The children are then at least given a chance of a stable homelife with a mother and a father under one roof and committed to each other.

You said:

BLAIR: “Christianity puts unfair expectations on marriage for Christian couples. Don’t talk to each other, pray to God and he will solve your marriage strife. Is that really sound advice for married couples? Does prayer end our differences and create peace in a marriage? Nope.”

Where did you get that bullcocky? Christian couples are always talking and discussing their problems. I say, “The family that prays together stays together.” So you are saying that all the couples in marriage counseling are atheists??? Nope.

You said:

BLAIR: “This of course brings up an issue for Christian doctrine. If the only way to heaven is to hear about and accept Jesus as your personal savior, then children that die do not go to heaven. Stillborns, mentally retarded, feral children, and isolated societies where missionaries have not reached are all going to hell.”

You are nuts. Children are the innocent ones. Jesus said, “Verily I say to you, whosoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.” Apparently, you skipped some important verses in the Bible that answer those questions.

 

Response to Shelli #008:

SHELLI: “If a person does not walk in the ways of Jesus Christ, he or she is not a Christian.”

That’s something Christians tend to say in order to dismiss the actions of other Christians. The bottom line is that the Bible is clear on what one must do in order to get to Heaven: accept Christ as your Lord and Savior and acknowledge his sacrifice on the cross. That’s it. If you accept those two things then you are a Christian. Christians like you can try to twist it all you want to dismiss the actions of your brethren, but it is to no avail because we see through your smokescreen and see Christianity for what it is.

SHELLI: “Have you ever heard of wolves in sheep’s clothing? That would classify the KKK and others who claim that they are killing in the name of Jesus.”

The “No True Scotsman” joke is banging around in my head right now. The KKK, Christian Identity, and Army of God (just to name three of many) are proud of their Christianity and they fit the criteria of Christians – they accept Christ as their Lord and Savior (within the Trinity) and acknowledge the sacrifice he made on the cross for their sins and the sins of mankind. That’s all that is required. They quote the Bible to back up their views and terrorist actions.

SHELLI: “I don’t know why people nowadays have to make Christianity such a complex issue.”

There’s a simple reason for that – it is. The NT is so full of contradictions and inconsistencies that it can’t be anything but complex. The majority of Christians don’t know the first thing about the faith that they profess belief in. Did you know that over 70% of Christians polled said that Rev. Billy Graham gave the Sermon on the Mount?

Most Christians have no idea how the Bible came to be or why the Sabbath is on Sunday (the day of the Sun not son). It’s pathetic how little Christians know about their religion and faith. Of course if they knew all of those things they wouldn’t be Christians any more – they’d be atheists or at least deists if they couldn’t shake the psychological crutch of a need for an invisible man in the sky.

SHELLI: “Believe me, America is NOT a Christian nation whatsoever. […]If America was a Christian nation, there would be no murder (including abortion), rape, adultery, etc.”

You are correct, America is not a Christian nation, but it is a nation that is composed mostly of Christians. Historically, nations that are theocracies have been absolute disasters. At no time in history has a theocracy survived – and the time they were around was extended only through violence and bloodshed. It doesn’t matter what religion the theocracy is based on – they don’t survive.

In modern times, the most secular nation in the world, Norway, also has the lowest murder rate in the world, lowest rape rate in the world, etc. A country of mostly atheists is the most civil and moral nation on the planet.

The most religious areas of the world are the most violent areas of the world. Even in the microcosm that we call America are prime examples of this. There are more crimes committed in the religious parts of America than in the more secular parts. The Bible belt has the highest divorce rates (Barna Research), highest murder rates (Bureau of Justice), highest teen pregnancy rates (Planned Parenthood), highest drug use (ATF), highest high school dropout rate (Department of Education), highest non-violent crime rate (Bureau of Justice), and highest rape rate (Bureau of Justice).

SHELLI: “You want to see a poster Christian woman, just look at me. I don’t drink, don’t smoke, don’t do drugs, don’t have sex, and I support wonderful charities…”

Does this mean you don’t subscribe to the virtues of Christian humility? Does posing in a bikini make you a poster Christian woman (yes, I know about that)? Does your bragging about becoming a movie star and author fit into the humbleness that Jesus called for?

SHELLI: “There is no such thing as murder in the name of Jesus.”

Some people visit Fantasy Island… you visit Fantasy Planet. Earth to Shelli… come in, Shelli! The followers of Jesus have committed heinous crimes against humanity and all variations of the species. The war on infidels, women, slaves, and others have cost the world billions of lives. I can hear you now saying, “But they weren’t true Christians!” Spin it any way that makes you feel better, but the bottom line is that all the sword-wielding, bomb-toting, shot-taking, evil-talking, and anti-humanity killers for Jesus were TRUE Christians in every sense of the word.

SHELLI: “That is an abomination of everything that He stands for.”

What about Matthew 10:34? “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

What about Luke 22:36? “Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Or how about Romans 13:4, which specifically says Jesus is the bearer of the sword? “For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid, for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

What about Revelation? Is not the act of killing millions of non-believers an act of murder? Is this not the same mentality of the Crusaders – to kill the infidels?

SHELLI: “Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ….not a religion. Religion is man-made. Christianity is the only faith that is not man-made.”

That’s so ludicrous that I’m actually having a hard time thinking of a response. I’m simply flabbergasted that you would even think that Christianity is not man-made or not a religion. Do you go to church? Do you sing hymns? Do you chant prayers? Do you read scripture aloud? If you do any of this then you are engaging in organized religion: organized by man. The religion of Christianity is based entirely on laws and rules set down in a dogmatic book – the very foundation of religious rituals and rites.

SHELLI: “My friend, you need to re-read the New Testament.”

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.

SHELLI: “I feel sorry for you that you think prostitution should be legalized. That is an ugly profession that inevitably spreads disease and destruction to everyone.”

I can’t believe you would dishonor your Savior like that. Who do you think Mary Magdalene was? Jesus never admonished her for her prostitution and never said anything bad about her for engaging in prostitution.

If you’re going to spout off, you should at least know your facts. Where prostitution is legalized and controlled, the spread of disease is seriously decreased because of regulations and medical requirements. Nevada is a good example. Where illegal prostitution is occurring (on the street corners), disease is still a problem. Where legal prostitution is occurring (in the brothels), disease is almost non-existence. The reason that it is almost non-existent is because all the girls are given medical exams and tests and regulations are adhered to that keep both the women and men clean and safe.

SHELLI: “You know what suppresses sexual desires and sin? Focusing on the Lord Jesus Christ AT ALL TIMES!”

Yeah, I can see where focusing on Jesus at all times could suppress your sexual desires. I’m getting ready to make love to a woman and I can’t, because I’ve got the face of Jesus stuck in my head. Who can become aroused when Jesus’ face is starting at you? It’s almost as bad as putting the face of Barbara Bush on your lover – it’s an instant premature ejaculation prevention kit.

Why would you want to suppress your sexual desires, anyway? Did not your Bible-God tell you to go forth and bare fruit? Did not your Bible-God make a man for a woman and a woman for a man? Why did your Bible-God make sexual encounters feel good if he didn’t want you to have sexual intercourse? Why did your Bible-God make a penis and vagina if they weren’t meant to interact with each other? Sex feels good for a reason. What is it with the Christian hang-up on sexuality?

SHELLI: “By the way, what is this about not talking in church?”

I said that if YOU talked then you are an abomination unto God and going to Hell because you have violated biblical law. You are a woman – a lesser human in the eyes of Christianity. You are to be submissive. Your very defense of your Bible-God in these emails is a transgression against your Bible-God. A male should be doing this, not you.

Haven’t you read your Bible completely? If you had you should remember the laws for women. You, as a woman, are not allowed to talk in church – you are not permitted to speak at all. 1 Corinthians 14:34 says, “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.”

SHELLI: “It is great to be a Christian woman! I feel so free and at peace!”

I fail to see how this can be if you follow all the biblical laws for women. You are obviously violating a lot of them if you feel so free and at peace.

Your husband can divorce you any time he wants if he finds anything unclean about you. If two husbands find a woman unclean, then she is an abomination unto the Lord. (Deuteronomy 24:1-4)

If you get married and you’re not a virgin, then you are to be stoned to death because you are an abomination unto the Lord. (Deuteronomy 22:13-30)

When you are menstruating, you are to be “put apart” for seven days. That means you are to be isolated from everyone. No one is allowed to touch you, because if they do, then they are now unclean as well and must follow the rules to become clean again. Anything that you sit on during your menstruation period is unclean and must be cleaned thoroughly in accordance with the laws and rules. You must also sleep in a separate bed during your period so that others do not sit on your unclean bed. Do you do all these things in accordance with Leviticus 15:19-33?

You’re only allowed to receive an inheritance from your father if you have no brother. If you have any brothers at all, then they are to receive all inheritance from the dead father. (Numbers 27:1-11)

If your husband and another man are fighting and he is about to be killed, you cannot grab the other man’s genitals to stop him from killing your husband. If you do, your hand is to be cut off without pity. (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)

You are not allowed to wear anything that men wear or anything that resembles a man’s garment. This means you can’t wear shorts, jeans, slacks, suits, etc. If you wear any of these things then you are an abomination unto the Lord. (Deuteronomy 22:5)

You have to pray and attend church with your hair covered. Why is this so? Men are not to be covered because they are the glory of God, but women are nothing more than the glory of man. You were created for man. You are also to have long hair, for it is a glory unto you, where a man is to have short hair (so much for all those long-hair depictions of Moses in the movies, huh?). (1 Corinthians 11:5-15)

You are to submit completely to your husband because he is to you as God is to him. (Ephesians 5:21-33)

You have to dress modestly and refrain from adorning yourself. You should not braid your hair; adorn yourself with gold or pearls, or “costly array.” That means no more bikinis, shorts, tank tops or halter-tops for you. (1 Timothy 2:9, 1 Peter 3:3)

You also cannot teach men. This means that female teachers are an abomination unto your Bible-God. This means that your email to me, in attempt to teach me about your Bible-God, is an abomination unto your Lord. Going over all this stuff it’s clear to see that you are going to Hell based on your Bible-God’s “loving” affection toward the lower class woman. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) It should be noted that you are allowed to teach younger women, so female teachers in an all-girls school is okay (Titus 2:3-5).

If you’re a widow over the age of 30, then you are not allowed in church anymore. You have to stay at home and pray and be humble and sad – you cannot enjoy life if you are a widow, because being a happy widow is worse than being an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:1-16)

SHELLI: “It must really suck to be an atheist because whether you know it or not, you have no assurance of anything.”

I have more assurances than you. I have assurances from my family and loved ones. I have assurances from my own actions. I have assurances from the sciences. I’m not the one that has to rely on faith to keep me “assured.”

SHELLI: “There is so much evidence of God’s presence, how can you possibly miss it?”

Really? Where? If you have evidence of God and specifically of his “presence,” then you need to present it immediately. All of your fellow brethren apologists have been searching for years for evidence to prove such. If you have this evidence then give it to them. They need some evidence because their circular logic is becoming rather tiresome.

SHELLI: “A fool says in his heart there is no God.”

Yep, you’re definitely going to Hell if there is one. Jesus specifically commanded you not to say “fool” to anyone because that would surely place you in hellfire. “…But whosoever shall say, thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.” (Matthew 5:22) Of course Jesus violated his own advice and called people fools (Matthew 23:17).

SHELLI: “Oh, I forgot. Just wanted to remind you that the two Columbine shooters were both atheists. They asked Cassie Bernall if she believed in God or not. She said ‘yes’, and they blew her head off. God Bless her precious soul.”

How does this make them atheists? If anything it makes them Christians. They made sure she believed in God before they killed her so she could go to Heaven.

I would also remind you that the story is false. Cassie Barnall’s brother, Craig, is the one that perpetuated the lie. Others knew it was a lie but did not come forward until later. You can read about the false martyrdom of Cassie online at Salon.Com. Of course if you believe the Bible you’ll believe anything you read, especially the liars for Jesus, such as Cassie’s parents that knew before Misty wrote the book that the account was false.

When they asked a student if she believed in God and she said yes, they didn’t shoot her again and let her live. The Columbine shooters were Christians.

SHELLI: “And as for torturing animals, I am mainly referring to the horrible people who are randomly killing stray dogs and cats, even precious household pets.”

I’m not sure exactly what you are referring to, but I can attest personally to an issue that came up when I lived in Southern California. We had a large stray cat problem on our street. We called the city, county and anyone else that would listen. Animal control refused to help because the animals had not bitten anyone. So we called the Humane Society and the ASPCA and they refused to help as well.

This left the neighborhood no choice to but terminate the animals by themselves. Different neighbors used different techniques, but ultimately the stray cat problem was resolved. Many cats were trapped and brought to the pound where they were put down. It’s unfortunate that some of the cats had to be taken out with guns and other devices, but no one would help – even your beloved ASPCA and Humane Society.

SHELLI: “Accountability is up to the age of 12. Then you are responsible for your actions in the eyes of God.”

Please provide the biblical reference for this. What scripture provides the age of accountability? If you can provide this information you’ll be the first to ever provide it. Even the preachers that I’ve talked to couldn’t give me the scriptural reference for this supposed age of accountability.

The bottom line is that babies that die go to Hell because they don’t know Jesus. Apologists have been dealing with that since the dawn of Christianity.

SHELLI: “I hope you go to the movies a lot because you will soon be seeing a lot of me.”

Right. Make sure you let me know when Hollywood opens her doors to you. Isn’t Hollywood supposed to be “of Satan?” Isn’t dreaming of working for Hollywood contrary to Christian standards? What about that humility we spoke of earlier when you declared yourself to be a poster child of Christian womanhood?

SHELLI: “I have an autistic spectrum disorder called Asperger’s Syndrome, which incurs such symptoms as depression. Do a search on the Internet, and you will find evidence that we are very highly intelligent and have ultra-sensitivity.”

My research indicates the complete opposite of what you are saying. People suffering AS show significant deficiencies in social skills and have difficulty accepting change or transition (they love routines). AS causes a problem in recognizing non-verbal cues and body language, and they often have a hard time determining the proper body position for a moment, which has led to conflicts because of improper body language.

Most AS sufferers have obsessive routines and tend to be obsessed or preoccupied with a single subject of interest (such as religion). Your statement about being overly sensitive is accurate in regards to sounds, tastes, smells and sights.

However, those with AS have normal intelligence, while some AS sufferers exhibit exceptional skills in a specific talent or area (usually because of their obsessive routines and preoccupation with such a skill or talent or subject). Those with AS are considered naïve and they are often viewed as eccentric.

AS sufferers also have difficulty with pragmatics and prosody because of problems in language development. People with AS are extremely literal and have a very difficult time understanding context, meaning and sarcasm in the social arena. (Sources: What is Asperger Syndrome by Barbara L. Kirby, ICC 299.80, Asperger’s Syndrome by Dr. Stephen M. Edelson at the Center for the Study of Autism in Salem, OR)

If you have AS then I offer my sympathies. I would remind you that it was you that mentioned mental illness in your email. My entry in the debate is clear on this, “If what she was saying was true about her mental illness, I felt it better to terminate the “debate” – it was the moral thing to do.

SHELLI: “So, I can tell you for certain that there is another dimension in existence beyond this one.”

Are you suggesting that AS provides you with ESP? Physicians are clear that overly sensitive reactions to certain sounds, tastes, etc are normal in AS. They are clear that it is not all sounds or all tastes, but certain sounds and tastes. Nowhere is there any medical documentation of any ESP or awareness of any other dimension. You’re going to have to prove this. Telling me “for certain” is not going to cut it.

SHELLI: ”I am a perfectly logical and sensible person.”

That’s certainly debatable.

SHELLI: “I am kind of offended that you were mocking me on your website. Do you normally make fun of “autistic” people who know a heck of a lot more than you ever will?”

I was not mocking you because of your “condition.” I simply stated that because of your mental condition that it was not prudent for me to continue the debate. I felt that it was an immoral thing to do. However, because you seem keen on maintaining the dialogue, I changed my mind and now we are continuing the debate.

I understand that AS makes it hard for you to understand context and sarcasm, so I’m going to be very literal: Your condition made me uncomfortable debating you. I did not feel at ease continuing the debate because of the way you were acting. This is why I mentioned it on the page and said I was terminating the debate. However, because of your insistence on continuing and now, my awareness of why you were behaving in such a manner, I think it is okay to continue.

I would ask you to make an extra effort to grasp the context and to not take everything I say literally. This will help avoid unnecessary conflicts as we continue.

SHELLI: “OH, AND I OFTEN WRITE IN CAPS AT 36 FONT BECAUSE I THINK IT IS FUN. SOMETIMES I DO IT IN DIFFERENT COLORS.”

What you need to understand that in the cyber world all caps is seen as yelling and screaming and a sign of anger. While you may see it as fun, others see it as a form of yelling. I would recommend that you not use all caps and large fonts unless you intend for your type to be understood as yelling.

SHELLI: “If you are so smart, scientific, and able to read people with that wacky atheist mind of yours, describe what I look like.”

Hmm… let’s see if I can do this. You’re 5’2 and weigh around 100 pounds. You have blonde hair with a light complexion. Your measurements are 36/26/35. Of course there’s your violet eyes. I’d say you wear a size 5 or 6.

So how did I do?

If I had to guess, I’d say you live in New Jersey. Have your children’s books been published yet? How do your local beauty pageants square with Christian values and humility? Doesn’t all that heavy make-up, skimpy dresses, bikinis (even if they are of the stars and stripes variety), and even modeling disagree with Christian principles?

SHELLI: “I am also offended that you were entertained by my accounts of being raped, abused, and suffering from eating disorders. Typical atheist. Arrogant and sarcastic, always getting your kicks out of mocking nice people, especially Christians.”

Entertaining? I assume this is your AS taking things literally and out of context, as this was simply not the case. What I did say is that all those things lend to where you are at now – why you need the psychological crutch of religion.

What I also said is that most of the emails that I get from overly-proselytizing Christians like yourself are full of sad sappy stories that reek of past drug addictions, physical abuse, rapes, etc.

SHELLI: “There is this thing in Christianity called being humble.”

You’ve got this humble thing down pat, don’t you? All this talk of being a Hollywood superstar in films, being a great giver to charities, and everything else you mentioned. No offense, but you’re a regular braggart.

SHELLI: “Science is all speculation and proving one’s theories.”

Science is all speculation? That nonsense isn’t even worth responding to. You should know better than that.

SHELLI: “There were no witnesses to the creation of the universe.”

That’s correct, so if you’re using that argument to disprove cosmology, then that same argument holds true for any intelligent creation.

SHELLI: “At least people witnessed Jesus.”

Please give me all the witnesses. Your apologists can’t find any witnesses to Jesus, so why do you think there were any?

SHELLI: “A new whale species was just discovered. How did science miss that???”

Your email was bordering on ludicrous, but now it has crossed the ludicrous line.

Do you realize how many species of animals are on this planet? Each day in deep-sea research a new species of animal is discovered. New species are added to the list all the time as we explore further into the jungle, deeper into the oceans, and higher up the mountains. Not too mention that new species come about through evolution, such as the new species of iguana discovered on the Galapagos Islands last year by a team working for the Animal Planet. Certainly you’re not suggesting that science should know all the species on the planet before they even begin to look?

SHELLI: “Remember the coelacanth? Fisherman caught one when it was believed to be extinct for millions of years.”

Actually, the coelacanth was thought to be extinct for less than 100 years. None had been seen or caught during that time until one was finally dredged up and they were removed from the extinct list. Earth is a large planet and new species are found all the time and species that were once thought to be extinct are identified. Three years ago a species of bird was identified in Asia that was thought to be extinct for almost 50 years. The only reason it was seen is because scientists setup infrared cameras to take pictures of tigers.

SHELLI: “So, how can you say for certain that there is no God and call people crazy when they have experienced evidence of an afterlife, even though you have not?”

I can say that because I have seen no evidence. If god were some invisible energy that never intervened in any aspect of the running of the universe, then I could see your point. However, the god you claim as the master of the universe is a meddling entity that intervenes and plays a crucial role in the workings of the universe. This type of meddlesome meddling will leave a fingerprint or a mark that can be identified. As many of the actions claimed to be from the Bible-God, then any of those could be proven and none of them have.

That is why we can say there is no god, especially the gods of the defined religions like yours.

As to the “afterlife,” that’s been shown to be a reaction in the brain, as the “tunnel,” etc., has been identified in non-death instances, such as in blackouts by pilots during high G forces.

Do you know what causes the “tunnel effect” in near death experiences? Air Force and Navy pilots know. They noticed the same “tunnel effect” during high G testing in a centrifuge. The pilots lost consciousness and began to see a tunnel of light and they felt like they were being pulled into it. Scientists quickly began a more dedicated research into the phenomenon and found that during times of unconsciousness and death the brain released hormones as much as ten times as normal. These hormones act like a narcotic to the brain and reduce pain stimuli to the nerve center. It causes the brain to focus in on whatever stimuli are left. This causes a tunnel effect. The effect has also been documented in high stress situations that involved fight or flight. Victims that escaped recalled not being able to hear anything or see anything except what was immediately in front of them. Everything else was blurry. They had a sense of walking down a tunnel and being in “automatic” mode.

This tunnel-like apparition is often associated as ascension to heaven in a great tunnel of light and we hear our relative’s voices calling for us and a great knowledge is at the end of the tunnel.

During an NDE experience, there are two parts of the brain that increase electrical activity at the release of these chemicals: the memory and the senses. Pain is dulled, memories and stored knowledge are active, and our sense of hearing and sight are greatly enhanced, but focused intensely, causing a tunnel-like vision. The end of the tunnel contains knowledge because our memories are active and everything we have ever learned and memorized is racing through our brain.

You didn’t experience the “afterlife,” what you experienced was a biological reaction.

SHELLI: ”There have been so many reports of people being miraculously cured of terminal illnesses, and the doctors even confirmed that medically, there had been no hope for their recovery.”

Yes, there have been many reports, but no documentations. Miracle healings without any medical interference would cause a media uproar. We’ve never seen it. Why is that? There has been no proven miracle recovery. There have been plenty of documented cases of placebo-effect recoveries and recoveries enhanced and aided by meditative biofeedback, such as seen in meditation, prayer, etc.

Every time someone has contacted me with a miracle cure they’ve never been able to prove it. Most of the time they don’t even email me back when I challenge them to produce the evidence. They can’t do it because there is no evidence – it’s all fabricated nonsense to make people feel better.

SHELLI: “I am talking about people who were stricken with cancer all over their bodies, and once they were prayed for, immediately began to heal. Again, do some research on these accounts.”

All research on these “accounts” is conclusive to falsehoods. Each account was made-up, exaggerated by liars for Jesus, or found to be completely at the hands of medical science. No one has ever proven these accounts and never will because your god and no other gods exist.

SHELLI: “Why do you say you don’t hate theists, and then a few sentences later, you say you do?”

Obviously we’re dealing with your inability to understand context and to take things literally. Let me rephrase that part from my Q&A for you so you can understand it better.

I don’t hate theists. What I do hate are theists that use their theism to promote hatred, war, etc. Do you see the difference?

Let me give you an analogy to help you along. I don’t hate dogs in general, but I do hate dogs that bite me. Is that easier for you to understand?

SHELLI: “You either hate, or you don’t. Which is it? Proves my theory that atheists are haters.”

No, it just proves that you have difficulty understanding what I’m saying.

SHELLI: “Studies have shown that premarital cohabitation and sex increase the likelihood of a divorce.”

Please provide the studies and data from the studies to back up that statement. Every study that I have seen shows that cohabitation prior to marriage reduces the chances of divorce. You’ll have to back that statement up.

SHELLI: “When you fall in love with someone, it is unconditional… which means that you still love the other person no matter how many bad habits they have or how mediocre they are in bed. Those are petty things that can be improved.”

In order to love someone you have to know that person. If you fall in love before knowing someone, then you are a victim of lust – not love. There are some things that we, as individuals, cannot stand and it is nice to know what those things are before we commit to someone without even knowing who they are or what they do.

SHELLI: “You have demonstrated that by your own foolish words.”

There you go again… paving your way to Hell by disobeying the words of Jesus that those that call people fools are destined for hellfire.

SHELLI: “Visit some distraught pregnant teens sometime who do not know who their babies’ fathers are.”

Teen pregnancy is not the issue here. What is the issue is cohabitation before marriage. Teenagers do not get married. We’re talking about apples and you’re throwing oranges around. The failure to use protection during sex as a teenager is not even in the same league as two adults cohabitating before marriage. Stop throwing smoke.

SHELLI: “A person who waits till marriage will never have to deal with that kind of mayhem and heartbreak.”

Right. Everyone that cohabitates before they get married was having teenage sex and gave birth to a baby at the age of 15. That was sarcasm by the way, so please don’t take it literally.

SHELLI: “The children are then at least given a chance of a stable homelife with a mother and a father under one roof and committed to each other.”

Right. Everyone that cohabitates before they get married bring children from their teenage sexual escapades with them to the house. No one that cohabitates prior to marriage have children after they marry – they all get pregnant beforehand and ruin their relationships, causing fatherless and motherless children. Again, that was sarcasm, so please don’t take it literally.

SHELLI: “So you are saying that all the couples in marriage counseling are atheists???”

No, I’m saying that couples in counseling are not Fundamentalists. I’m saying that couples that use secular counseling instead of praying to their invisible friend in the sky have a better chance of saving their marriage. You don’t solve marital problems by praying to god – you solve them by talking to each other. Again I think we are dealing with your sense of literalism and failure to understand context.

SHELLI: “You are nuts. Children are the innocent ones. Jesus said, “Verily I say to you, whosoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.””

Perhaps you should re-read what you sent me? What Jesus is saying is that children that do not receive the kingdom of god shall not enter heaven. This means that children that die before receiving the kingdom of god go to Hell. Are you sure you don’t want to rethink that and try again?

SHELLI: “Apparently, you skipped some important verses in the Bible that answer those questions.”

Really? Perhaps you can quote me the verse that says babies that don’t know about Jesus get into Heaven? Can you give me the scripture that says children that have not learned of Jesus get a “get out of Hell free” card? I can’t find it. Apologists can’t find it. What Bible are you reading – the one you wrote? (That was mocking you, by the way)

Shelli Rebuttal #009:

Email #1:

BLAIR: “Perhaps you should re-read what you sent me? What Jesus is saying is that children that do not receive the kingdom of god shall not enter heaven. This means that children that die before receiving the kingdom of god go to Hell. Are you sure you don’t want to rethink that and try again?”

Here is your answer: “And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them; and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, ‘Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.’ And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.” Mark 10:13-16

BLAIR: “Does this mean you don’t subscribe to the virtues of Christian humility? Does posing in a bikini make you a poster Christian woman (yes, I know about that)? Does your bragging about becoming a movie star and author fit into the humbleness that Jesus called for?”

I am simply stating what I do for a living. How is that bragging? I was trying my swimsuit on, and my best friend told me to pose for pictures at her home! I do not do nudity, nor will I ever do professional swimsuit or lingerie modeling. My primary interests are acting and writing. I love performing. I love entertaining people. If I can make anyone smile, that would be the perfect day for me.

BLAIR: “Some people visit Fantasy Island… you visit Fantasy Planet. Earth to Shelli… come in, Shelli! The followers of Jesus have committed heinous crimes against humanity and all variations of the species. The war on infidels, women, slaves, and others have cost the world billions of lives. I can hear you now saying, “But they weren’t true Christians!” Spin it any way that makes you feel better, but the bottom line is that all the sword-wielding, bomb-toting, shot-taking, evil-talking, and anti-humanity killers for Jesus were TRUE Christians in every sense of the word.”

Jesus said to love and respect your fellow man. That means no killing in His name. How much clearer can I make it?

BLAIR: “What about Matthew 10:34? “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.”

What about Luke 22:36? “Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.””

The “sword” is the Word of God. Apparently, you take everything literally. Jesus said, “I give my peace unto you.” Enough said.

BLAIR: “That’s so ludicrous that I’m actually having a hard time thinking of a response. I’m simply flabbergasted that you would even think that Christianity is not man-made or not a religion. Do you go to church? Do you sing hymns? Do you chant prayers? Do you read scripture aloud? If you do any of this then you are engaging in organized religion: organized by man. The religion of Christianity is based entirely on laws and rules set down in a dogmatic book – the very foundation of religious rituals and rites.”

Jesus Christ was our Emmanuel, “God among us”. If He had not been on this earth, there would be no Christians. Hence, Christianity is not man-made.

BLAIR: “I can’t believe you would dishonor your Savior like that. Who do you think Mary Magdalene was? Jesus never admonished her for her prostitution and never said anything bad about her for engaging in prostitution.

If you’re going to spout off, you should at least know your facts. Where prostitution is legalized and controlled, the spread of disease is seriously decreased because of regulations and medical requirements. Nevada is a good example. Where illegal prostitution is occurring (on the street corners), disease is still a problem. Where legal prostitution is occurring (in the brothels), disease is almost non-existence. The reason that it is almost non-existent is because all the girls are given medical exams and tests and regulations are adhered to that keep both the women and men clean and safe.”

Fornication is a sin, my friend. Jesus NEVER condoned it. He forgives it. He does not condone it. Mary Magdalene was saved from the wages of her sin because of Christ’s forgiveness. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” John 3:16-17

BLAIR: “Yeah, I can see where focusing on Jesus at all times could suppress your sexual desires. I’m getting ready to make love to a woman and I can’t, because I’ve got the face of Jesus stuck in my head. Who can become aroused when Jesus’ face is starting at you? It’s almost as bad as putting the face of Barbara Bush on your lover – it’s an instant premature ejaculation prevention kit.

Why would you want to suppress your sexual desires, anyway? Did not your Bible-God tell you to go forth and bare fruit? Did not your Bible-God make a man for a woman and a woman for a man? Why did your Bible-God make sexual encounters feel good if he didn’t want you to have sexual intercourse? Why did your Bible-God make a penis and vagina if they weren’t meant to interact with each other? Sex feels good for a reason. What is it with the Christian hang-up on sexuality?”

Sex is for the marriage bed only. Once you are united in Holy Matrimony, you can get freaky all you want. It is worth the wait for the right person. How a person performs in bed before marriage is not relevant or important to building a successful, loving, lasting relationship. If you feel that you have to “test drive” someone, you are obviously with the wrong person.

BLAIR: “I fail to see how this can be if you follow all the biblical laws for women. You are obviously violating a lot of them if you feel so free and at peace.

Your husband can divorce you any time he wants if he finds anything unclean about you. If two husbands find a woman unclean, then she is an abomination unto the Lord. (Deuteronomy 24:1-4)

If you get married and you’re not a virgin, then you are to be stoned to death because you are an abomination unto the Lord. (Deuteronomy 22:13-30)

When you are menstruating, you are to be “put apart” for seven days. That means you are to be isolated from everyone. No one is allowed to touch you, because if they do, then they are now unclean as well and must follow the rules to become clean again. Anything that you sit on during your menstruation period is unclean and must be cleaned thoroughly in accordance with the laws and rules. You must also sleep in a separate bed during your period so that others do not sit on your unclean bed. Do you do all these things in accordance with Leviticus 15:19-33?

You’re only allowed to receive an inheritance from your father if you have no brother. If you have any brothers at all, then they are to receive all inheritance from the dead father. (Numbers 27:1-11)

If your husband and another man are fighting and he is about to be killed, you cannot grab the other man’s genitals to stop him from killing your husband. If you do, your hand is to be cut off without pity. (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)

You are not allowed to wear anything that men wear or anything that resembles a man’s garment. This means you can’t wear shorts, jeans, slacks, suits, etc. If you wear any of these things then you are an abomination unto the Lord. (Deuteronomy 22:5)

You have to pray and attend church with your hair covered. Why is this so? Men are not to be covered because they are the glory of God, but women are nothing more than the glory of man. You were created for man. You are also to have long hair, for it is a glory unto you, where a man is to have short hair (so much for all those long-hair depictions of Moses in the movies, huh?). (1 Corinthians 11:5-15)

You are to submit completely to your husband because he is to you as God is to him. (Ephesians 5:21-33)

You have to dress modestly and refrain from adorning yourself. You should not braid your hair; adorn yourself with gold or pearls, or “costly array.” That means no more bikinis, shorts, tank tops or halter-tops for you. (1 Timothy 2:9, 1 Peter 3:3)

You also cannot teach men. This means that female teachers are an abomination unto your Bible-God. This means that your email to me, in attempt to teach me about your Bible-God, is an abomination unto your Lord. Going over all this stuff it’s clear to see that you are going to Hell based on your Bible-God’s “loving” affection toward the lower class woman. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) It should be noted that you are allowed to teach younger women, so female teachers in an all-girls school is okay (Titus 2:3-5).

If you’re a widow over the age of 30, then you are not allowed in church anymore. You have to stay at home and pray and be humble and sad – you cannot enjoy life if you are a widow, because being a happy widow is worse than being an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:1-16)”

This is ludicrous! These were the laws of men! Can’t you tell? Men have been trying to suppress women’s rights for thousands of years. That is not God’s will for His precious daughters. Would you want your daughters treated like that? I don’t think so. Woman are to be viewed as more precious than rubies. I have accepted the lord Jesus Christ as my blessed Savior, and I walk in His ways. I am not going to Hell. You have to “walk the walk”, not just “talk the talk”. That is where many so-called Christians fail in their lives. All talk, no action. You reap what you sow. You sow wickedness, you reap wickedness. You sow love, you reap love.

BLAIR: “I have more assurances than you. I have assurances from my family and loved ones. I have assurances from my own actions. I have assurances from the sciences. I’m not the one that has to rely on faith to keep me “assured.””

I have assurances from my friends and family as well…AND God. That puts me ahead of you. What would you do if everyone you “loved” was gone tomorrow?? Huhh?

I have to read more about the Columbine shooters. They definitely weren’t holding the loving Word of God in their hearts, were they? If they were not atheists, they were definitely Satanists.

BLAIR: “Please provide the biblical reference for this. What scripture provides the age of accountability? If you can provide this information you’ll be the first to ever provide it. Even the preachers that I’ve talked to couldn’t give me the scriptural reference for this supposed age of accountability.

The bottom line is that babies that die go to Hell because they don’t know Jesus. Apologists have been dealing with that since the dawn of Christianity.”

I am simply giving you the answer that my pastor gave me a few years ago. Personally, I don’t think much of the issue.

BLAIR: “Right. Make sure you let me know when Hollywood opens her doors to you. Isn’t Hollywood supposed to be “of Satan?” Isn’t dreaming of working for Hollywood contrary to Christian standards? What about that humility we spoke of earlier when you declared yourself to be a poster child of Christian womanhood?”

There are Christians in the movie industry. You don’t hear much about them because our sick society would rather hear about the “wolves”. Face it, every time you turn on the television, sex, violence, murder, rape, etc., is thrown in your face. That is sadly what people are most rivoted by nowadays. That is what gets the ratings sky-high.

I don’t need you to relay back to me information about Asperger’s. I already know the facts, and I fit the profile. I don’t have normal intelligence, though. I have scored as high as a 152 on an IQ test. Generally, though, my average is in the 130’s. I was an Honor Roll student back in my school days, and I was awarded the Presidential Academic Fitness Award. I think there is much more for doctors to learn about this recently discovered condition. I may look like a party girl, but I am extremely shy, and I prefer not to go out and socialize much. I spend most of my time in my room actually. Basically, I have one female friend whom I have known since kindergarten and one man I have been involved with off and on for nearly 8 years. That’s it.

BLAIR: “If I had to guess, I’d say you live in New Jersey. Have your children’s books been published yet? How do your local beauty pageants square with Christian values and humility? Doesn’t all that heavy make-up, skimpy dresses, bikinis (even if they are of the stars and stripes variety), and even modeling disagree with Christian principles?”

I was in one beauty pageant in 1990 when I was 15. I was not dressed skimpy. There was casual wear and evening wear….no swimsuits. I have never modeled. I wear makeup only when I leave the house, which is rarely. I have no skimpy dresses. Actually, I own only a few dresses, and they are all long in length. My bikini is for the beach only, my friend…..or lying out in my backyard away from people. I did not even get to the shore this year. Understand??

BLAIR: “You’ve got this humble thing down pat, don’t you? All this talk of being a Hollywood superstar in films, being a great giver to charities, and everything else you mentioned. No offense, but you’re a regular braggart.”

I am humble. If you lived with me in the same house, you would know. I am very quiet.

BLAIR: “Science is all speculation? That nonsense isn’t even worth responding to. You should know better than that.”

I got A’s in science! Science is all about, “Uh, how does this work? Let’s see.” It nevers explains why. Hypotheses, theories, etc., etc…all speculation.

BLAIR: “Please give me all the witnesses. Your apologists can’t find any witnesses to Jesus, so why do you think there were any?”

I think the people that Jesus healed were great witnesses to His power. Uh, how about His disciples? Mary Magdalene? The Virgin Mary? How about those of us today who have experienced His love and healing? The world is just full of witnesses to His glory.

I think the people that experienced near death would know better what happened to them. Doctors cannot disprove anything. They weren’t inside the people’s heads as they were dying.

BLAIR: “All research on these “accounts” is conclusive to falsehoods. Each account was made-up, exaggerated by liars for Jesus, or found to be completely at the hands of medical science. No one has ever proven these accounts and never will because your god and no other gods exist.”

PROVE IT.

BLAIR: “Obviously we’re dealing with your inability to understand context and to take things literally. Let me rephrase that part from my Q&A for you so you can understand it better.

I don’t hate theists. What I do hate are theists that use their theism to promote hatred, war, etc. Do you see the difference?

Let me give you an analogy to help you along. I don’t hate dogs in general, but I do hate dogs that bite me. Is that easier for you to understand?”

Hate is hate is hate. I think what you are trying to convey is you hate it WHEN a dog bites you. Otherwise, you would be contradicting yourself in your statements. Here is an analogy for you, too. I love my cats, but I ‘hate’ when they scratch me. I still love my kitties. That is unconditional love. Here is another analogy. You love your kids, right? Do you hate THEM when they get into trouble….or do you hate WHEN they get in trouble? HMMMMM…..See the difference? Can you hate your kids??

BLAIR: “No, it just proves that you have difficulty understanding what I’m saying.”

I don’t think so. Not with a genius IQ. I think the true nature of Christianity is FAR beyond your understanding and that of many Christians. Sermon on the Mount????? Billy Graham???? What an embarrassment. No wonder Christianity is a joke to a lot of people. No one “gets it”. Again, you gotta “walk the walk”….or there will be nothing short of wickedness and destruction in people’s lives. (The so-called “Bible Belt”, for example. Nothing but a pack of wolves.)

In order to love someone you have to know that person. If you fall in love before knowing someone, then you are a victim of lust – not love. There are some things that we, as individuals, cannot stand and it is nice to know what those things are before we commit to someone without even knowing who they are or what they do.

Fornication is a sin. Having premarital sex is irrelevant to knowing someone. To do so is to lust. Like, “Ooo, let’s see how good this one is in bed…Then maybe I will love her enough to commit to her.” Please!!!What is most important is what lives in their soul…That is what you really fall in love with.

BLAIR: “Teen pregnancy is not the issue here. What is the issue is cohabitation before marriage. Teenagers do not get married. We’re talking about apples and you’re throwing oranges around. The failure to use protection during sex as a teenager is not even in the same league as two adults cohabitating before marriage. Stop throwing smoke.”

Teenagers do get married, my friend. Read sometime, will you? A lot of them get married BECAUSE of the pregnancy…DANGER! 2 adults cohabitating before marriage could be running around on each other and having unprotected sex with multiple partners. Think of all the children that could be born into this disgusting situation. All the diseases being spread from one person to the next. Simply living together is not a commitment!! Adults are doing the same thing teenagers are doing. Come on! It IS all the same! Fornication is fornication. A sin is a sin is a sin.

BLAIR: “Right. Everyone that cohabitates before they get married was having teenage sex and gave birth to a baby at the age of 15. That was sarcasm by the way, so please don’t take it literally.”

I am willing to bet 99.9999% of cohabitating couples are getting it on in bed. I am not stupid! It is hard to abstain when you are living together.

BLAIR: “No, I’m saying that couples in counseling are not Fundamentalists. I’m saying that couples that use secular counseling instead of praying to their invisible friend in the sky have a better chance of saving their marriage. You don’t solve marital problems by praying to god – you solve them by talking to each other. Again I think we are dealing with your sense of literalism and failure to understand context.”

As Christians, we know that to have our prayers answered, God expects us to do our part as well. He isn’t going to budge if we don’t budge. That isn’t how He operates. He isn’t going to bless us with a job if we don’t go looking for one first. He isn’t going to bless us with children unless we have sex. We aren’t the Virgin Mary. He isn’t going to repair relationships unless we help to work on them ourselves. God makes it clear in the Bible that we have to communicate. People that pray and simply sit back and wait for things to happen magically are just kidding themselves. They need psychological help.

Bottom line…..WHERE DO YOU GET ALL THIS FALSE INFORMATION ABOUT MY FAITH??? What you say is laughable. You have not a clue. I think I would know better about Christianity than you. Now, if you don’t mind, this is Christmas time. Have some respect for us who are celebrating this Holy season with our family and friends. We don’t need a bunch of atheists running around protesting depictions of the Nativity in public places. Somehow, I get the feeling that is what is going to happen eventually. The Pledge and the Ten Commandments display are just the beginning…..You atheists won’t be completely satisfied until there is absolutely no mention of the Creator in this society.

Email #2:

And another note to you….I am an award-winning poet, and I have always excelled in reading comprehension. I am fluent in Spanish, and I can understand other languages as well. So, do not even think that I cannot interpret the context of your writing. I was a child prodigy. Some symptoms of Asperger’s have been a nuisance to me, but others have been a strength. Don’t forget also that I am an adult with Asperger’s, not a child. There is a MAJOR difference. Most studies I believe have been drawn from children.

Email #3:

Also, stop throwing Old Testament scriptures in my face about stoning unruly children or women who have premarital sex. In your eyes, Christians are disobeying God if they do not adhere to these punishments. News flash! There were no Christians in that time period. I believe the word “Christian” was only mentioned twice in the New Testament. Jesus Christ changed the world once He came around. He was accused of heresy for going against the norm. He was called a blasphemer. His ministry was one of love. He was nailed to a cross for atonement of our sins. Therefore, the “laws of men” of the Old Testament no longer apply. We have a new covenant with God. We were saved from the wages of sin because of the blood of the Lamb. Why can women talk in church? Because of the cross. Why do we no longer stone people to death for adultery? Because of the cross. Why do we eat shellfish? Because of the cross. We are free because of what Jesus did for us 2,000 years ago. Why can’t you seem to grasp the concept of Christianity. If you really understood my faith, you would not be making references to old customs that were prevalent years and years before the birth of Christ. As far as the Sabbath is concerned, there is no law of God that says it must be on a Saturday or a Sunday. Again, that was a custom of men thousands of years ago. It can be any day of the week put aside for quiet time for yourself. We all deserve at least one day of rest per week. That is all it is. Not a big deal. The world has changed, Mr. Scott. However, the basic principles of Christianity remain the same. Love one another as God has loved you.

P.S. The Ten Commandments are the laws of God, not of men….so don’t even try to tell me that I’m contradicting myself. I think God worries more about His children dying unsaved than whether we are consuming crabs at Red Lobster on a Sunday.

Response to Shelli #009:

SHELLI: “”And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them; and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, ‘Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.’ And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.” Mark 10:13-16”

Thank you for confirming what I said in the first place. If a child does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter heaven. Mark 10:13-16 is very clear. Jesus himself, in that passage, is the one that gives the children the knowledge of God and blesses them. Children that die before they receive the knowledge of God go to Hell. Jesus makes it very clear in the very passage that you provided.

SHELLI: ”The “sword” is the Word of God. Apparently, you take everything literally. Jesus said, “I give my peace unto you.” Enough said.”

I fail to see how you can say that the “sword” is the Word of God in either of these passages. In Luke 22:36 Jesus is talking about selling ones clothing so he can buy a sword. Are you suggesting that the Kingdom of God can be bought? Not coming for peace but as a sword has nothing to do with establishing a kingdom. You are seriously stretching it here. There is no logical way you can read those two passages and make the assertion that “sword” is an analogy for the kingdom of God unless you are willing to capitulate, at a minimum, that the kingdom of God can be bribed with nothing more than the value of one’s undergarments.

SHELLI: ”Jesus Christ was our Emmanuel, “God among us”. If He had not been on this earth, there would be no Christians. Hence, Christianity is not man-made.”

Do you think that Hinduism is a man-made religion? The “prophets” of Hinduism are incarnations of the God Vishnu – God in the form of flesh. By your own thinking you must admit then that Hinduism is not a man-made religion, but, as you put it, a “relationship.” Perhaps we should look at the very definition of religion and see what fits?

Religion is defined as:

“Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.”

That fits Christianity perfectly. If we are to believe what you have written in your rebuttals, then we can assume that every aspect of your life is affected by your so-called “relationship” with Jesus. Jesus, regardless of his status as man, God-man, or prophet, was a spiritual leader. You have beliefs and values that you based upon the teachings of Jesus. You have rites and rituals that you perform in order to maintain that relationship.

Whether you admit it or not, the “relationship” is a religion. By the very acts that you do, such as pray, read your Bible, attend church, proselytize, etc – you ensure the religiosity of the so-called “relationship.”

SHELLI: “Sex is for the marriage bed only. Once you are united in Holy Matrimony, you can get freaky all you want. It is worth the wait for the right person. How a person performs in bed before marriage is not relevant or important to building a successful, loving, lasting relationship.”

You are correct that sex is not necessary in building a successful relationship. There are many relationships that last through periods of impotency and older couples last long beyond their ability to engage in sexual activity.

However, sex plays an important role in the relationship – it allows a level of intimacy not achieved through any other method or manner. To jump into marriage without having sex beforehand can be detrimental to the relationship. I will grant you that this is not the norm for everyone – there are always exceptions.

Allow me to relay a story about the pitfalls of “no sex before marriage.” A friend of mine was telling me about this man that she had a huge crush on in high school. Several years after graduation she ran into this man and they became instant friends. The relationship developed over several months and sex was not part of the picture. Each of them was considering marriage and was deeply in love with the other.

One night they decided to finally have sex. After a lengthy time of foreplay the man tried to penetrate her vagina and he was unable to. The man was too wide and long to fit into her vagina. No amount of lubricant solved the problem. Can you imagine discovering this problem on your wedding night? Talk about a devastating blow to a new relationship! The wedding night would be ruined and, to use religious talk, the marriage would never be consummated.

By trying to have sex before they got married, they were able to discover this issue and prevent the relationship from going further and causing excessive hurt for either party.

The Kama Sutra discusses the issue of size, both male and female, and lays out a chart of what sizes can work and what cannot. In countries where marriage is still arranged, the parents have to take into consideration the size of the man’s penis and the woman’s vagina. Parents will not arrange marriages for couples that are incompatible because of the size of their sexual organs.

Of course size of one’s genitalia is just one aspect of why sex before marriage is important. Not necessary – but important.

SHELLI: “If you feel that you have to “test drive” someone, you are obviously with the wrong person.”

It is not about a “test drive.” It is to ensure that compatibility goes beyond emotional attachment. How can one be intimate with someone if all they do is lay there like a log during sexual activity? How can one be intimate with someone if his penis is too large and causes severe pain for the female? How can one be intimate with someone if the vagina cavity is so large that it provides almost no sensation for the man’s penis, which happens to be below the average size?

If you want to call it a “test drive,” then so be it. What it amounts to is an assurance that there is mutual compatibility and sexual gratification before a long-term commitment. I agree with you that sex on the first date is not necessary, nor appropriate. I am of the mindset that feelings for someone are important before one engages in sexual activity. It may not be love, but one should at least feel for the other person. I see sex as a way of being intimate – not of consummating a marriage.

SHELLI: “This is ludicrous! These were the laws of men! Can’t you tell? Men have been trying to suppress women’s rights for thousands of years. That is not God’s will for His precious daughters.”

I thought the Bible was the literal word of God? Are admitting men wrote the Bible? Are you suggesting that God did not inspire the Bible? If men wrote the Bible then how can you know for sure what is and what is not truly God’s word? Could not have man written that God gave Moses the Commandments, but in reality Moses made them up?

SHELLI: “Would you want your daughters treated like that?”

No, I would not want my daughters treated like that. That is why my daughters do not go to church and they are not part of any religious group that tries to make women submissive. The worst adversary of woman’s rights in the world has been religion.

SHELLI: “I have assurances from my friends and family as well…AND God. That puts me ahead of you. What would you do if everyone you “loved” was gone tomorrow?? Huhh?”

How does having assurances from an imaginary friend put you ahead of me? That’s no different than saying that I have assurances from Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

If everyone I loved were suddenly gone tomorrow, then I would find others to love. When one leads a loving and compassionate life then finding loved ones is not hard.

SHELLI: ”I have to read more about the Columbine shooters. They definitely weren’t holding the loving Word of God in their hearts, were they? If they were not atheists, they were definitely Satanists.”

You just can’t accept the fact that the Columbine shooters were atheists. What you have done is accepted bogus email as “gospel.” Of course the Christian mindset allows you to do just that – a pattern of gullibility and a false ideology of “argument from authority,” in that anything that comes from a supposedly reliable source must be true. If only Christians would start to verify their so-called authority figures before repeating what they’ve read and heard like parrots.

They were not Satanists. They were church-going Christians. Just accept that fact. Of course if you hadn’t tried to play the “guilty by association” card then we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Before you try to throw mud in someone’s face you should make sure that you don’t have any in your face.

SHELLI: “I am simply giving you the answer that my pastor gave me a few years ago. Personally, I don’t think much of the issue.”

Your pastor is an idiot, then. You should think a lot about the issue. This is a major issue with Christian theology. It shows just how immoral Christian theology is. It’s bad enough that the theology burns people in Hell for eternity, but to burn innocent children and babies in Hell because they did not gain knowledge of God is insufferably immoral. There is no scripture that backs up the “age of accountability” because it was invented by the church. Do you not think it inconvenient that whenever your pastor mentions it that he doesn’t provide scriptural reference? As we talked about above, Jesus himself said that children that do not receive the kingdom of God will burn in Hell.

SHELLI: “Face it, every time you turn on the television, sex, violence, murder, rape, etc., is thrown in your face. That is sadly what people are most rivoted by nowadays. That is what gets the ratings sky-high.”

Face it, every time you open the Bible you are confronted with sex, violence, murder, rape, genocide, incest, fratricide, infanticide, and many other atrocities. I guess that’s what gets the Bible’s ratings so sky-high? How can you speak out against such things in Hollywood, which are clearly make-believe, and then not rant against those very same atrocities in the Bible? Would you let a child read the Bible and learn about incest, rape, fratricide, and genocide (just to name a few)?

SHELLI: “I have scored as high as a 152 on an IQ test. Generally, though, my average is in the 130’s. I was an Honor Roll student back in my school days, and I was awarded the Presidential Academic Fitness Award.”

I keep getting back to this humility thing…

SHELLI: “I have never modeled.”

Yes you have. When you pose for pictures for agents you are modeling. When you pose for Miss Millennia you are modeling. Your Miss Millennia pictures speak volumes against your so-called Christian humility.

SHELLI: “My bikini is for the beach only, my friend…..or lying out in my backyard away from people. I did not even get to the shore this year. Understand??”

What I understand is that your bikini was used to model for Miss Millennia, so I fail to see how you can say that you only use it for your backyard away from people. The entire world can see you practically naked with nothing but a skimpy stars & stripes bikini on. Regardless of who took the picture and for what initial purpose, the bottom line is that you willingly posted this picture online for the world to see and to help you gain recognition with Miss Millennia. I fail to see the humility in that and I fail to see how that backs up your last statement.

I’m just calling it the way I see it – and what I see is someone posing for a web page in a skimpy bikini, a top that exposes a lot of cleavage and a dress that shows cleavage along with more makeup than a Chinese opera star.

SHELLI: “I am humble. If you lived with me in the same house, you would know. I am very quiet.”

Shyness and humility are not the same. Humility, or the act of being humble, is to be modest in one’s behavior. Being humble is to not be a braggart. I have heard nothing from you but braggart statements about your IQ, your special gifts, your rise to stardom, your seeking of Hollywood fame, your declarations of being an award-winning poet, and more. You are the complete opposite of humble. You have no humility. You’re a braggart and arrogant.

SHELLI: “I got A’s in science! Science is all about, “Uh, how does this work? Let’s see.” It nevers [sic] explains why. Hypotheses, theories, etc., etc…all speculation.”

Perhaps we’re just dealing with semantics, but it’s a major semantics issue. Science is not about speculation. Science can speculate, that’s often the road to answering a question, but speculation is not the role of science. Perhaps it would be apropos for us to define the word speculation? Speculation is the contemplation or consideration of a subject, especially in meditation. Speculation is also a conclusion, opinion, or theory reached by conjecture and is reasoning based on inconclusive evidence or supposition. Of course conjecture is guesswork and supposition is the art of supposing.

Science does not fit those criteria. If anything invalidates a theory, then the theory must be thrown out. Science is how we find facts and then use those facts to find a theory. Sometimes scientists will guess, but the tests and lab results will throw the guess out as a “bad guess.” Scientists know that the best way to gain data and knowledge is through practical experimentation and the finding of facts and data.

SHELLI: “I think the people that Jesus healed were great witnesses to His power. Uh, how about His disciples? Mary Magdalene? The Virgin Mary? How about those of us today who have experienced His love and healing? The world is just full of witnesses to His glory.”

How can people that were healed be witnesses to Jesus? None of those that were supposedly healed offered any eyewitness testimony at all. There are no books written by those who claim to have been healed by Yeshua.

His disciples? None of his disciples/apostles wrote any books. Do you think that the disciples wrote the gospels? The gospels were written much later – after the fact. How come there are no accounts of Jesus by any of the writers and historians of Jesus’ age? When Jesus gave up the ghost on the cross there were great calamities that occurred in the area: sky darkening, earth shaking, ground opening up, etc – and not a single person in the area saw it, heard or, and much less wrote about it.

The Virgin Mary? You can’t use the Bible to prove the Bible. Mary, if she existed at all, never wrote a book about Jesus and offered her testimony. She’s not a witness because people are writing about her.

The world is also full of people that swear to the power and glory of Allah, Vishnu, Zoroaster, Mithras, Yahweh, the Goddess, and many others. If you are willing to allow such “testimony” as a valid eyewitness, then you must equally accept the same “eyewitness accounts” from other religions.

Are you prepared to accept the validity of other religions on the same criteria you have listed as valid eyewitness accounts? Other religions have people that were healed. Other religions have disciples and apostles. Other religions have virgin mothers. Other religions have people that swear to the holiness and power of their god or goddess.

Can you name a single write or historian that was alive during the time of Jesus that wrote about him? Can you name a single non-Biblical reference to Jesus?

SHELLI: “I think the people that experienced near death would know better what happened to them. Doctors cannot disprove anything. They weren’t inside the people’s heads as they were dying.”

You don’t have to be inside someone’s head to understand what is going on. The chemical reactions that occur in the brain during death and trauma are well documented. NDE is an explainable event that has been scientifically shown to be a natural occurrence. People can believe what they want, but the fact remains that NDE is a natural occurrence in the brain during a traumatic event or death events where the brain still functions and the person is resuscitated before brain death occurs.

Do you think this event is unique to Christians? NDE events have been reported in every part of the world, in every culture, and a part of every religion. You can either admit that every religion is the correct one and that Christianity does not have a corner on the religious market, or you can admit that NDE is completely biological. I would suggest that, as a supposedly “A” student in science, that you accept the scientific evidence for a biological cause of NDE.

SHELLI: “PROVE IT.”

Do you know what the burden of proof is? You made the exceptional claim that faith-healing works and that there are hundreds of documented cases. I’ve called your bluff. Now it is up to you to prove that faith healing works. All I’m asking is that you provide one case where it was scientifically proven that Jesus miraculously healed someone: just one.

Many people have contacted me swearing that Jesus healed them or someone they knew in a miracle. When push came to shove and I asked for the evidence they couldn’t provide it and suddenly stopped talking to me. I exposed every one of them as liars for Jesus.

SHELLI: “I think what you are trying to convey is you hate it WHEN a dog bites you. Otherwise, you would be contradicting yourself in your statements.”

I see your point and I concede the point. You are correct that I should have stated that I don’t hate the object itself, but when the object does what I am referring to.

SHELLI: “Teenagers do get married, my friend. Read sometime, will you? A lot of them get married BECAUSE of the pregnancy…DANGER!”

Yes, sometimes teenagers do get married because of pregnancy. But teenagers are not engaged in cohabitation before marriage. You are throwing out data that is irrelevant to our conversation. We are talking about whether cohabitation before marriage is appropriate for people that love each other.

We’re not talking about sex in the back seat of Daddy’s Chevrolet. We’re talking about two adults that cohabitate before marriage in order to ensure that they are compatible and can survive a marriage to each other. It is during cohabitation that couples learn all the nuances of each other. It is during cohabitation that couples learn to appreciate each other more – or begin to resent each other. It’s not a “test drive” of the individual, but a “test drive” of the relationship to ensure that it can make it over the long haul.

The data is clear – couples that cohabitate before they get married are less likely to get divorced. The facts speak for themselves.

SHELLI: “Think of all the children that could be born into this disgusting situation. All the diseases being spread from one person to the next. Simply living together is not a commitment!!”

Living together is a commitment. Couples don’t move in and start cohabitating after their first date. Couples that do that are stupid and reckless. We’re talking about couples that love each other and cohabitate before marriage. Why are you having such a hard time keeping the issue clear?

Couples that cohabitate before they get married are less likely to get pregnant because they are taking precautions as if they were married (birth control pills, condoms, etc.). The data is clear on this issue. Cohabitation is the best route to take for couples that are serious about each other before they take the marital plunge. For serious couples that cohabitate, the average time of cohabitation before marriage is eight months. It doesn’t take long to get all the loose nuts tightened and the mess tidied up. It only takes a few months of cohabitation before you realize that you can or cannot marry the person that you love and is living with you.

Love is not the only factor for marriage. Couples break up for many reasons even though they love each other. One wants children and the other doesn’t. One wants to move and the other wants to stay where they grew up. One wants to focus on a career while the other wants to focus on home and family. Love is just one aspect of a relationship. I will grant that love is the concrete in the brick wall, but without bricks, the concrete is useless.

SHELLI: “I am willing to bet 99.9999% of cohabitating couples are getting it on in bed. I am not stupid! It is hard to abstain when you are living together.”

Of course they are having sex. Who said they weren’t? You insinuated that every cohabitating couple was getting it on as teenagers and had a baby at 15 (or some nonsense like that). I think the issue here is that you are having a difficult time separating the issue of fornication (in general) from loving couples that cohabitate before they get married.

SHELLI: “As Christians, we know that to have our prayers answered, God expects us to do our part as well. He isn’t going to budge if we don’t budge. That isn’t how He operates. He isn’t going to bless us with a job if we don’t go looking for one first.”

That’s the biggest load of bologna I’ve ever heard. Let me rephrase your paragraph so it makes more sense.

As a Christian I know that after I do all the work to get a new job that I will forsake my efforts and give all the credit to my imaginary friend in the sky. I do all the dirty work and get things done on my own, but I’m afraid to take ownership of my actions (good and bad) and so I give God credit for the good and blame Satan for the bad. It’s a win-win situation for me!

That is the more accurate way to say what you said.

SHELLI: “People that pray and simply sit back and wait for things to happen magically are just kidding themselves. They need psychological help.”

At least we agree on that point. You agreed with me the entire time and it took this long for you to admit it. Why didn’t you just come out right away and say that you agreed with me? I said in my article, and during our debate, that Christians that do nothing but pray to solve their relationship problems are accomplishing nothing. It is for this reason that Christians have one of the highest divorce rates among all religions. It is for this reason that the highest divorce rates in the United States is in the Bible Belt.

SHELLI: “I think I would know better about Christianity than you.”

I would disagree. You didn’t even know about the Age of Accountability. You didn’t know that babies go to Hell as Jesus commanded. You didn’t know the origin of the 66 cannon in the Bible. The only thing you know about Christianity is the touchy-feely stuff and you know nothing about the facts and history of the faith you proclaim.

SHELLI: “Now, if you don’t mind, this is Christmas time. Have some respect for us who are celebrating this Holy season with our family and friends. We don’t need a bunch of atheists running around protesting depictions of the Nativity in public places.”

Of course Atheists respect the rights of Christians to celebrate Christmas. We also respect the rights of Muslims to celebrate Ramadan, the Jews to celebrate Hanukkah, and the African-Americans to celebrate Kwanzaa. What we do not respect is when religion (any of them) violates the separation of church and state by putting Nativity scenes on government property.

Why do Christians feel the need to have the government support their religion? Is your faith and religion so weak that you need to government to prop it up?

Would you allow a Ramadan, Hanukkah, and Kwanzaa exhibit placed next to the Nativity? Would you allow an Atheist message placed next to it in the public square? Is your view truly about religious freedom or is it more accurately about religious proselytizing?

SHELLI: “The Pledge and the Ten Commandments display are just the beginning…..You atheists won’t be completely satisfied until there is absolutely no mention of the Creator in this society.”

Atheists do not have a problem with God in society. What Atheists have a problem with is government-endorsed God and religion. The government is supposed to represent all citizens, regardless of religious or non-religious affiliation. In order for Atheists to have the right to be Atheists, then every other religion must have that equal right. We are all equal under the eyes of the Constitution, and too many Christians forget that.

As I asked before, why do you feel the need to have the government prop up your religion? Is it not a violation of the Ten Commandments to make them icons? Is it not a blasphemy to make God secular in such trivial things as “ceremonial deism?” Maybe it’s just me, but Christians seem very hypocritical when it comes to God and Government.

SHELLI: “And another note to you….I am an award-winning poet, and I have always excelled in reading comprehension. I am fluent in Spanish, and I can understand other languages as well. […] I was a child prodigy.”

Remember that humility we were talking about?

SHELLI: “Also, stop throwing Old Testament scriptures in my face about stoning unruly children or women who have premarital sex. In your eyes, Christians are disobeying God if they do not adhere to these punishments. News flash! There were no Christians in that time period.”

Correct. They were called Israelites or Jews. However, Jesus said clearly in the New Testament that, “No law shall change until the coming of the Kingdom of God.”

Christians like to claim that the cross has removed them from the burden of the Old Testament, but that is not the case. The cross only absolved Christians of their sins. The old laws are to remain as they are until the Second Coming of Christ. That’s basic Christian theology that most Christians don’t get. Of course I will grant you that Jesus contradicted himself on this issue and also said that the “new commandments” were to love each other and God (paraphrased).

SHELLI: “Therefore, the “laws of men” of the Old Testament no longer apply. We have a new covenant with God.”

If that’s the true case then why even include books like Deuteronomy in the cannon? Would it not have been wise to only put the books that discussed stories and ancestry instead of the “laws of men?” Of course this does not resolve the issue of whether or not the Bible is the “Word of God.” If the Bible is the actual “Word of God” then you are blaspheming when you say that books like Deuteronomy are the “laws of man.”

SHELLI: “Why can’t you seem to grasp the concept of Christianity. If you really understood my faith, you would not be making references to old customs that were prevalent years and years before the birth of Christ.”

I understand exactly what you are saying. I understand the bogus theology behind it as well. You are spouting off the typical apologists tripe when it comes to resolving the issues of OT and NT contradictions. The fact remains that the NT says that Jesus told his followers that the old laws would not pass away or change until the Second Coming and the new Kingdom of God.

SHELLI: “As far as the Sabbath is concerned, there is no law of God that says it must be on a Saturday or a Sunday.”

Huh? The Ten Commandments are clear about the Sabbath. The Sabbath is on Saturday – not Sunday. Sunday (the day of the SUN (not son)) was chosen by Emperor Constantine to match the day they worshiped Sol Invictus (invincible Sun) under the religion of Mithraism. You are violating God’s laws if you worship on Sunday and work on Saturday. Of course under your argument the Ten Commandments are part of the NT and are no longer applicable, so this argument is moot as far as you are concerned.

SHELLI: “It can be any day of the week put aside for quiet time for yourself. We all deserve at least one day of rest per week.”

Please provide the Biblical support of that statement. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you can choose any day you want. The Bible says you have to rest and keep holy the SABBATH. The Sabbath is Saturday. It amazes me that you keep accusing me of not knowing your faith.

SHELLI: “The Ten Commandments are the laws of God, not of men….so don’t even try to tell me that I’m contradicting myself.”

You are contradicting yourself. How is the Bible the “word of God” and be the “laws of man?” If God inspired, dictated, or breathed the Bible then all of it is “God’s law.” But that’s okay, even Jesus couldn’t name all the Ten Commandments when he was asked and he invented a new one on the spot.

SHELLI: “I think God worries more about His children dying unsaved than whether we are consuming crabs at Red Lobster on a Sunday.”

To turn a question back on you: What if you’re wrong? Should I save you a seat in Hell?

 

Shelli Rebuttal #010:

NOTE: Shelli returned three emails for my last response. Shelli has said she is ending the discussion. Will this be the end of the Shelli “debate?” That remains to be seen.

Email #1″

Mr. Scott, I don’t appreciate people calling me arrogant. People ask what I do for a living, and I tell them. All of a sudden I am a braggart for answering their questions? I don’t even care to talk about my acting career when I am around my friends…..unless they ask me about it first. I usually prefer to hear about their lives, not boast about my occasionally boring life. You asked me about my life…..I answered you. I have to defend myself from rude people who call me a liar. And what is this Miss Millennia? All the pictures that are posted of me on the Internet were taken for fun by my best friend…not by professional photographers. (sic) I have never modeled professionally. I have only been paid for film acting. There are no modeling assignments on my resume. So it is okay for all of us to strut our stuff on the beach for the world to see but not on the Net? What is the difference? Am I supposed to dress like a nun every day??? I don’t drink, I don’t smoke, I don’t do drugs, or have sex. How much more conservative can a person get??? People have been calling me a prude my whole life. I didn’t even kiss a guy till I was 20! How can you know anything about me from just a few emails??? Get your facts straight. Remember that “mud in the face” comment that you made? I only wear makeup when I go out….which is almost never….only for work and errands. I do not party. I would much rather be around my animals than people….because they love unconditionally and do not judge you. Hmmmm…..sounds like a very humble life to me. I am certainly not out throwing myself in people’s faces. I went to see my first movie “Jersey Girl” the other day……and I went ALONE! I did not stand up in the middle of the theater and shout out, “HEY, I AM IN THIS MOVIE!” I sat in a corner by myself. How can you call me arrogant when I have NEVER deemed myself to be better than anyone??? If I thought I was better than everyone else, I would never have had eating disorders, depression, or any other problems that I have had. Those are symptoms of insecurity, not superiority. I have practically lived my whole life with an inferiority complex. Now I am finally doing the things in life that I love to do. I am feeling much more confident in myself….as long as I am serving the Lord, there is no arrogance in me. Again I say, get your facts straight. Atheists, such as yourself, only bring out the anger in me…..so I bid you farewell. You have my prayers for salvation. I know that I have a special place in Heaven waiting for me. GOD BLESS you.

P.S. As far as public “religious” displays….well, this is a democracy. This is a government run by the people. We have the right to freedom of religion. If the PEOPLE want to display the Ten Commandments wherever they please, they have the right to do it. If they want to recite the Pledge of Allegiance with “under God” in it, they have the right to do it. If non-believers choose not to do these things, they have that right as well. You Atheists are not forced to believe in the Lord or practice His ways…..so sit down, shut up, and let the huge majority of us that DO believe to worship in any way that we please. IT IS OUR RIGHT. Our government is NOT run by the Church. (Think the Church of England). What more do you want?

Email #2:

I also wanted to comment on your friends’ sex dilemma. First of all, you don’t get divorced because a d..k doesn’t fit a p…y. (Yes, we Christians have a sense of humor, believe it or not.) Where do you think a baby comes out? How is that woman gonna bear the pain of childbirth when she can’t even handle a d..k in her p…y?? The vagina is a muscle that needs to be worked out once she starts to have sex. It will EXPAND in time to accommodate the penis just like it EXPANDS to accommodate a newborn baby. Learn some science, people. The sizes of male and female genitalia have nothing to do with the success of a marriage! Again I say….if you are with the right person, you will be COMPATIBLE! There may be physical pain at first, but there is always pain whenever you start working out a muscle. Try doing aerobics for the first time! UGH! Fornication is unlawful sex between unmarried people, whether they are living together or not. Premarital sex is wrong, disgusting, unnecessary, and sinful. MY NUDITY AND MY CHASTITY IS A GIFT TO MY HUSBAND ALONE! Don’t ever expect THIS girl to be posing in Playboy or any other nonsense like that.

Email #3:

You made a comment that Jesus said the old laws still hold true till the Second Coming. Hmmm…..what laws??? Well, did He not say to those men who wanted to stone that woman taken in adultery, “He who is without sin be the first to cast a stone?” All those dumb men just walked away. Jesus then turned to the woman and said, “Go, and sin no more.” If that isn’t the true essence of forgiveness and unconditional love, I don’t know what is. Anyone who hears the word of the Lord and rejects it (such as you) is going to be separated from God for eternity. Little children or anyone else that has never gotten the chance to hear and understand the Word will go to Heaven. How can a merciful, compassionate Lord do any less for His children? It is not their fault that they were never given witness of His teachings. This is just common sense. Would a loving parent kill their child because they do not know the difference between right and wrong? Why would God do that then? God’s ways are not our ways. His understanding is not our understanding. I would much rather put my faith in a very real and present Holy Spirit (not an invisible man in the sky) than to trust some person who thinks that the whole universe is a random occurrence. You can’t trust anything that is random, Mr. Scott. I guess that means that your thought processes are all accidental. How can I trust or believe what you say then? You are a random accident in this universe. How can you not be worrying then whether or not the sun, the moon, or the stars are going to fall out of the sky? After all, they were created at random, right? How do you know all the earth’s species aren’t going to melt tomorrow? After all, they are all random occurrences. How can you say that science can be an absolute assurance for everything when random minds or whatever created it? That means science is all random, right? In a random universe, what exactly is right and wrong? Who is really right or wrong? If we are all accidents, how can any of us be sure? Are brains and bodies are all accidents. How do we know that our bodies are really working the right way? Or the wrong way? If a person tells me I have to look a certain way to get a particular job, how can I really trust that this random accident in the universe is correct? What if they are wrong? What if I am wrong? How do we really know? In a random universe, there are no assurances of anything. Why is love called love? Why is hate not called love? What is beauty, and what is not? Everything is so random, you know. Your family is a random occurrence. If they are gone tomorrow, how do you know for sure that you will find more people to love or to love you? From all your reasoning, I would think you would be having nervous breakdowns every minute of your life….the random accident called life. What exactly IS life anyways? What exactly IS a nervous breakdown? What isn’t one? Am I really here typing these sentences? After all, I was just thrown together by accident 29 years ago. Hell, it takes MUCH more faith to be an Atheist than to be a child of the Almighty God who sent me here to fulfill a purpose. Amen. HAPPY ATHEIST LIVING. I am done with these discussions. I have done my job as a witness of Christ for you. I am moving on now. You can take my information however you would like. After all, in your eyes, I am just a random occurrence…..of no real absolute importance.

Response to Shelli #010:

SHELLI: “All of a sudden I am a braggart for answering their questions?”

No, you are a braggart because you emphasized the glorious nature of Christian humility, and then went out of your way to brag about how wonderful you are at every chance you got. I’m simply pointing this out as a highlight of the hypocrisy that is Christianity. If you actually followed all the rules and guidelines in the Bible you would go insane.

SHELLI: “I have to defend myself from rude people who call me a liar.”

I don’t believe I called you a liar, but that I simply questioned your perception of the issue. Many of the things you have said sound far-fetched. When you speak of such things, you should at least be prepared to back those statements up and to not get offended when someone is suspicious of their legitimacy.

SHELLI: “And what is this Miss Millennia?”

You tell me. You are the one that participated in it. You went on-and-on about your humility and when I called you on posing in your bikini, you tried to pawn it off as a “picture that a friend took in fun.” Why is the picture of you in your bikini with blossoming bosoms on the web for all to see?

http://www.millenniamodelsearch.com/cgi-millenniamodelsearch/gallery?bio_8678 (the Millenia Model Search web page no longer exists)

SHELLI: “All the pictures that are posted of me on the Internet were taken for fun by my best friend…not by professional photographers. I have never modeled professionally.”

You’re missing the point. The whole gist of this go-around over your posing for pictures (regardless of who took them) and then posting those pictures on the Internet is to highlight the hypocrisy of your claim of moral high ground when it comes to such “womanly virtues” as humility. You have repeatedly talked about how God wants a woman to behave and what behavior is appropriate for a Christian woman. You have repeatedly reminded me of your “humility.” This is why I wanted to know how you reconciled your views of a Christian woman and humility with half-naked pictures of yourself online.

SHELLI: “So it is okay for all of us to strut our stuff on the beach for the world to see but not on the Net? What is the difference? Am I supposed to dress like a nun every day?”

No, you shouldn’t dress like a nun. There is no difference between wearing a bathing suit on Daytona Beach or at a web page – in both places you can be seen by the public, ogled by men, and drooled over by prepubescent boys. What makes this issue important for you is not the act itself, but the act based on your projected image of a “fine Christian woman.” All of this debate over your cleavage on the Internet stems from a simple question that I had, “How do you reconcile your views of a Christian woman with your actions?”

SHELLI: “How can you call me arrogant when I have NEVER deemed myself to be better than anyone?”

The claim of arrogance was based on your insistence that you were better than everyone else because you were a Christian woman. I called you on it, and now your in a defensive posture trying to prove to yourself that you’re not arrogant, you’re not religiously snobbish, and that you’re not a hypocrite when it comes to religious ideals and how you project yourself as a Christian woman.

Your arrogance is not an issue of public domain, as you would try to make it out to be. The arrogance we are addressing is your arrogance toward religious ideals. Your arrogance has you believe that your personal religious beliefs are better than others. Your arrogance has you believe that your personal religious morality is better than others (this is why I called you on it – especially your “Christian woman’s humility” that you kept referring to).

SHELLI: “Now I am finally doing the things in life that I love to do. I am feeling much more confident in myself….as long as I am serving the Lord, there is no arrogance in me.” (sic)

I’m glad you’re feeling better about yourself. There’s nothing wrong with that. The issue at stake here is your religious arrogance. There have been many things justified through “serving the Lord.” Your religious arrogance seems to be one of those things.

SHELLI: “As far as public “religious” displays….well, this is a democracy. This is a government run by the people.”

Did you not pay attention in American History class at Lenape High School? The United States of America is not a democracy – it is a republic. The very Pledge of Allegiance that you were earlier defending says, “and to the Republic, for which it stands.” Why is it so hard for people to get this?

So what is the difference between a Republic and a Democracy? In a Democracy, the majority rules without question – there are no rights for the minority. In a Republic, the majority can only rule is that rule does not violate or trample upon the rights of the minority.

Do you understand the difference?

SHELLI: “We have the right to freedom of religion. If the PEOPLE want to display the Ten Commandments wherever they please, they have the right to do it.”

It is our freedom of religion that demands that such displays stay out of government buildings. How can you have religious freedom if your government is promoting a specific religion? It’s all fine and dandy when your government is supporting your particular religion, but how would you feel if it supported a different one? Would you be equally enthusiastic over a display of Hindu laws in your capitol building? Would you be ecstatic about a morning prayer at your child’s school to the Goddess? Would you embrace your concept of religious freedom if the Muslims were allowed to build monuments in the county courthouse?

You are correct; if people want to display the Ten Commandments they have the right to. They can display the Ten Commandments anywhere they want except on government property. They can put 500 plaques in their yard, 100 on their car, 10 in their cubicle at work, 2 on each book cover at school, 5,000 in their home, and many more on public access property. But if they put just 1 on government property, property that represents all Americans, then they have violated the Constitution and prohibited the freedom of religion for all those that do not follow their religion.

Freedom of religion means freedom of religion for ALL – not just Christians.

SHELLI: “If non-believers choose not to do these things, they have that right as well.”

It’s hard to do this when the government is endorsing and promoting a specific religion. It’s hard to do this when Christians gang up on people that opt-out and ostracize them. My daughters don’t want to say the Pledge, but they do it anyway out of fear – they are scared of their Christian classmates. They have been teased, harassed, and ridiculed before by Christian children so they know from personal experience how well this “don’t say it if you don’t want to” line of bologna works. This is another version of Christian arrogance that we have talked about.

SHELLI: “You Atheists are not forced to believe in the Lord or practice His ways…..so sit down, shut up, and let the huge majority of us that DO believe to worship in any way that we please. (sic) IT IS OUR RIGHT.”

No one is stopping you from worshiping the way you want. What we are trying to do is ensure that you don’t worship where you are not supposed to – that you are not forcing worship on others. Worshiping in government buildings is inappropriate and violates the Constitution of the United States and the constitutions of every state in the nation.

SHELLI: “Our government is NOT run by the Church. (Think the Church of England). What more do you want?”

Our government might as well be run by the church the way some things are. Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and others make every effort to run the government. Jerry Falwell has admitted on national television that Bush has asked for his advice on policy. Doesn’t that scare you? Doesn’t it concern you that a Fundamentalist is giving advice on national policy to a born-again Christian president?

The president’s born-again beliefs come into play on every decision he makes. The reason this is worrisome is because born-again Christians believe Jesus is coming back and that Revelation will occur. Therefore, their foreign and domestic policy is guided by the idea that there will be an Armageddon, Rapture, and a Second Coming. Why bother worrying about our dependence on oil and helping reduce gas-guzzlers when Jesus is coming back? Why worry about destroying the environment when Jesus is coming back? Why worry about wars and death, when Jesus is coming back? You can start a war without worry, because if it is Armageddon, you were supposed to start it in the first place. The very idea of Armageddonomics in the White House and elsewhere concerns me and it should concern you.

As to what more do I want? I’d just like to see our representative government (meaning they represent all citizens, not just Christians) to follow Constitutional law. They swore an oath to uphold the Constitution of this land and they violate it any chance they get, especially when it comes to the Establishment Clause.

SHELLI: “First of all, you don’t get divorced because a d..k doesn’t fit a p…y. (Yes, we Christians have a sense of humor, believe it or not.) Where do you think a baby comes out? How is that woman gonna bear the pain of childbirth when she can’t even handle a d..k in her p…y??”

It’s okay to use the words penis and vagina instead of d—k and p—y here. When a woman starts her labor several things happen to help with the birth, which includes a dropping of the cervix, a new-gained elasticity in the labia majora and labia minora, as well as an extra dose of vaginal lubrication. The chemicals in the woman’s body allow her to give birth without ripping herself open (usually – rips can occur, especially with larger babies).

All of these natural “wideners” (if you will) do not occur during regular sexual intercourse. If a penis is too big for a woman’s vagina, they cannot have comfortable sexual intercourse. In those occasions where the penis is way too big, then intercourse is impossible without plastic surgery to widen the vagina or reduce the size of the penis (I don’t see anyone willing to volunteer for that).

The Kama Sutra discusses this because mankind has known this fact for a long time. When arranging marriages, the size of the penis and width/depth of the vagina were taken into consideration.

SHELLI: “The vagina is a muscle that needs to be worked out once she starts to have sex. It will EXPAND in time to accommodate the penis just like it EXPANDS to accommodate a newborn baby. Learn some science, people.”

I have learned some science – you are spouting off wives tales. The expansion of the vagina walls and muscles during childbirth is a hormonal induced reaction that is reactive to labor. This reaction does not occur during sexual intercourse. Is there some vaginal stretching during intercourse? Yes, there is. However, during periods of non-sexual activity, the vaginal walls will return to their normal state (given for variations or muscular damage within the vagina).

SHELLI: “The sizes of male and female genitalia have nothing to do with the success of a marriage! Again I say….if you are with the right person, you will be COMPATIBLE! There may be physical pain at first, but there is always pain whenever you start working out a muscle. Try doing aerobics for the first time!”

I’m amazed at your ignorance of the female body considering that you are a female. Of course you might know more about this if you understood why sex before marriage and cohabitation are important. The only way to keep the vagina stretched out to match an overly large penis is to have sexual intercourse every single day. Even then that does not eliminate the painful nature of the intercourse upon initial penetration and the first few thrusts, which stretch the vaginal walls.

No matter how much stretching occurs, there are many women that will not be able to accommodate certain penis sizes no matter how much stretching they do. To compare vaginal stretching to aerobics is asinine, at best.

If partners cannot engage in sexual intercourse because of size issues, then what’s the point of the marriage if it cannot be consummated and reproduction cannot take place? You can’t go forth and bare fruit if you can’t bare the pain.

SHELLI: “Fornication is unlawful sex between unmarried people, whether they are living together or not. Premarital sex is wrong, disgusting, unnecessary, and sinful.”

Fornication is only unlawful in your eyes and the misguided methods of ancient men that dominated women and refused them equality under the law. If you are so keen to follow those obscure rules of men (didn’t you chastise me earlier for quoting these “rules of men?”) then so be it. The same books where those “rules of men” come from that you told me don’t apply, comes the same guidelines on marriage and pre-marital sexual relations. Why are you so keen on adopting one set and disregarding another? Hypocrisy of Christianity – that’s why.

SHELLI: “Don’t ever expect THIS girl to be posing in Playboy or any other nonsense like that.”

I don’t expect you to pose for Playboy. You already posed for the Internet with full cleavage and lots of skin.

SHELLI: “You made a comment that Jesus said the old laws still hold true till the Second Coming. Hmmm…..what laws??? (sic) The stoning of adulterous women for example? Well, did He not say to those men who wanted to stone that woman taken in adultery, “He who is without sin be the first to cast a stone?””

Yes, Jesus contradicted himself a lot in the New Testament. He says several times that the old laws shall not pass until the coming of the Kingdom (most Christians feel this means the Second Coming). He also says a few times that he has brought a new covenant that replaces the old laws. He tells one person to follow the law, and then tells others not to follow the law.

However, the incident with the woman was not about law-breaking or following laws, but about sin itself – it was supposed to be a lesson about how all of mankind is sinful and none are sin free. You know, it’s called a metaphor.

SHELLI: “Anyone who hears the word of the Lord and rejects it (such as you) is going to be separated from God for eternity.”

If it turns out that your Bible-God is real, then I won’t mind being separated from him. The things he has done make him unworthy of worship and idolatry. The Bible-God deserves nothing more than a cold shoulder, and that’s being too nice. If I go to Hell I’ll be in great company and loving every minute of it. As an “evil Atheist” I’m sure I’ll be part of the staff. Shall I save you a seat?

SHELLI: “Little children or anyone else that has never gotten the chance to hear and understand the Word will go to Heaven. How can a merciful, compassionate Lord do any less for His children? It is not their fault that they were never given witness of His teachings. This is just common sense.”

How can you say that? You have absolutely no biblical basis whatsoever to say that. The Bible is clear that if you do not hear about Jesus, even children, then you are going to Hell. The only way into Heaven is through knowing Jesus – no exceptions, not even for children. We’ve already discussed the verse that confirms this (remember).

You (nor anyone else for that matter) have ever supported the “age of accountability” biblically. The “age of accountability” was invented by Christians to get over the fact that babies go to Hell – that their father-God is an evil tyrant who loves to send babies and children to a lake of fire just because their mommy and daddy never told them about Jesus or they couldn’t talk or speak the language to learn about it.

SHELLI: “Would a loving parent kill their child because they do not know the difference between right and wrong?”

You are the one that should be asking that question. Your Bible-God has killed his children many times for that reason. Do you remember the story in the Old Testament when God sent bears to maul children because they teased a bald man? Why did your Bible-God kill those children for the simple act of teasing? How can you possibly compare your hateful Bible-God to a loving parent?

SHELLI: “Why would God do that then? God’s ways are not our ways.”

You’re right. Our ways are more humane, more loving, and more nurturing. The few times I hear about parents killing their children I always hear, “God told me to do it.”

SHELLI: “You can’t trust anything that is random, Mr. Scott. I guess that means that your thought processes are all accidental.”

Your scientific ignorance is showing again. Randomness is not continuous. Physical laws constrain the randomness and cause what we call “patterns,” such as the orbit of planets, the firing of neurons, the rotation of a planet on an axis, etc.

SHELLI: “You are a random accident in this universe. How can you not be worrying then whether or not the sun, the moon, or the stars are going to fall out of the sky? After all, they were created at random, right? How do you know all the earth’s species aren’t going to melt tomorrow?”

You sure do know how to build a straw man, that’s for sure. I’m questioning whether or not I should even bother answering this one because it’s so ridiculous. Okay, I’ve decided – it’s too ridiculous to warrant a response.

SHELLI: “How can you say that science can be an absolute assurance for everything when random minds or whatever created it? That means science is all random, right?”

As I stated above, through the randomness of the universe, comes non-random physical and natural laws. Science is the pursuit of understanding these laws. Science is based on observation, and those observations must be consistent to warrant a theory. Science could not predict the steady nature of a planetary orbit if it were random. Science could not tell you that the Sun will rise tomorrow at a specific time if it were random.

SHELLI: “In a random universe, what exactly is right and wrong? Who is really right or wrong?”

We know that morality is subjective, but there are key moral issues that almost every society has picked up on and followed. These basic moral issues revolve around the survival of the species. What is right and wrong can be narrowed down to the survival of the individual and the survival of the species.

SHELLI: “If a person tells me I have to look a certain way to get a particular job, how can I really trust that this random accident in the universe is correct? What if they are wrong? What if I am wrong?”

If they are the ones that control whether or not you get that job, then they are right and you are wrong. This is simple situational ethics. You’re really stretching this “argument” to a radical extreme and it makes no sense whatsoever. Your straw man is burning to ashes.

SHELLI: “From all your reasoning, I would think you would be having nervous breakdowns every minute of your life….the random accident called life.” (sic)

As I said, your argument is ridiculous. We can avoid a nervous breakdown because of the non-random nature of the physical and natural laws. We know the sun will rise in the morning at a specific time because it is predictable, non-random. Is it possible that it won’t? Sure – but we’ll be dead before we ever know the Earth stopped spinning causing the sun to not rise.

SHELLI: “Hell, it takes MUCH more faith to be an Atheist than to be a child of the Almighty God who sent me here to fulfill a purpose.”

Of course you think that – you’re scientifically ignorant. You are a living and shining example of “ignorance is bliss.” You think everything is random, when it is the non-random that allows existence. You believe in invisible beings. If you need this to make you happy, then more power to you. I prefer to understand the world around me and enjoy it for what it is – a natural environment.

SHELLI: “I have done my job as a witness of Christ for you.”

If Jesus were real he’d probably be sitting in his executive office saying to you, “You’re fired!”

SHELLI: “After all, in your eyes, I am just a random occurrence…..of no real absolute importance.” (sic)

You’ve been very important. You have provided me with hours of entertainment and laughter.

NOTE: Shelli sent me a final email that was short and curt. This debate has been terminated by Shelli. Too bad – we were having lots of fun.