Debate 029: Tracy rants and raves

Tracy Rebuttal #001:

Why do atheist say that their beliefs are not religious… and yet defend atheism religiously and fervently… It is not irrational to assume the possibility of a Divine Creator or intelligent design… You say the bible does not have the answers yet there is many unanswered questions in science..ex..the missing link… evolution has not been proven true nor conclusive… your God bashing is not going to solve any thing… What about the columbine school shootings… a student was shot for having faith in God… one was shot for being black… is that what atheism teaches. You have a system of belief that you abide by that you govern yourself up under.. yet criticize people for governing themselves under God. Atheist seem to blame God and religion for all the pain they feel… Pain is going to happen regardless that’s life… but taking God out of the picture is not going to solve nor prove anything… We all are here but for a short while… religion for some is how they deal… I dont see God as religion… I see a self aware entity… The ultimate scientist… controlling… laws, motion, matter, energy, life…etc. like an energy force that sets the universe turning… You see yourself.

Why do evolutionist say that the first humans evolved from monkeys… I especially take offense of the racist undertones of having an ape like creature emerge out of africa naked and dumb with dark skin and big lips… oh I guess if it was found in europe it would appear to walk even more upright and have cream colored skin and be smarter….. missing link…. neanderthal man,,,, humonoid.

 

Response to Tracy #001:

TRACY: “Why do atheist say that their beliefs are not religious…and yet defend atheism religiously and fervently”

Because they are not religious. Atheism has no beliefs. Atheism is nothing more than the lack of belief in gods. Each Atheist adopts his or her own philosophy and ideology, and those are what they will defend “religiously.” Everyone defends his or her philosophies and ideologies, which is human nature. Why do you defend yours so fervently, as you have done in this email?

TRACY: “…It is not irrational to assume the possibility of a Divine Creator or intelligent design…”

If that is your view, you are certainly entitled to it. Why is it rational to believe in such? What evidence do you have to make your belief rational? If all you have is faith, then how is that rational? Faith is what allows people to believe in Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster, alien abductions, unicorns, leprechauns, and other such things.

TRACY: “You say the bible does not have the answers yet there is many unanswered questions in science..ex..the missing link…”

The difference, of course, is that you cannot continue to look for the answer in the Bible. The Bible is static: no one is writing a new New Testament. You have what you have and you must make do with it.

Science, on the other hand, can continue to look, question, and continue to find more answers. Religionists used to criticize science because science did not know how lightning struck (it was angry gods) or how volcanoes erupted (it was Hades, demons, or Satan). When scientists figured it out, the religionists just changed their position to something else the scientists did not know about. This is what we call “God of the gaps.” Religionists insert their god into the gaps of knowledge, and then retreat from those gaps when science fills them in. Religionists are running out of gaps to hide their gods in.

What missing link are you talking about, anyway?

TRACY: “evolution has not been proven true nor conclusive…”

Scientists have proven evolution factual. Even Creationists now admit that microevolution occurs because they could no longer deny the overwhelming evidence. We know evolution happened and is happening. What remain is how and why evolution occurs and how much the environment actually plays in driving evolution, or is evolution purely reactionary.

TRACY: “your God bashing is not going to solve any thing…”

No one means for God-bashing to solve anything. It is a source of entertainment.

TRACY: “What about the columbine school shootings…a student was shot for having faith in God …one was shot for being black…is that what atheism teaches.”

Do you actually believe that they shot one of the students for believing in God? Did you did not hear all the news and reports that it was a fraud perpetuated by a couple of students and the parents of the child supposedly shot for saying it? The mother had to sell her book and make a profit and she had to perpetuate the story of them shooting poor Cassie for answering “yes” to the question of believing in God. Finally, some students that were in the same area came out and told the truth: that it never happened and someone made it up.

Salon Magazine, the Rocky Mountain News, Denver Post, and many others printed articles that retracted the Cassie Bernall story that made her mom thousands of dollars from her book. Cassie was hiding under a desk in the library praying aloud. This is how the shooter found her – because she was being noisy. A witness in the library said he was walking in the library and the noise attracted him to her. He looked under the desk, said “peek-a-boo” and then shot Cassie. He never asked her if she believed in god or not.

It is an urban legend that Christians believe on faith and faith alone because the facts show that it is false.

Both the shooters at Columbine were Christians. Both went to church with their parents and both believed in God. They were not Atheists.

TRACY: “You have a system of belief that you abide by that you govern yourself up under”

I was not aware of this. Can you please tell me what my system of belief is that I abide by? I do not know what it is.

TRACY: “…yet criticize people for governing themselves under God.”

Here is the difference. You have the right to believe whatever you want. We respect that right. We respect your right to be a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Wiccan, Satanist, Judaic, or any other religion.

However, you do not have the right for those beliefs to be respected. I think your beliefs are silly and irrational. I respect your right to believe in them, but that does not mean I respect the beliefs.

My criticism is an equal opportunity criticizer, though. I equally criticize those that believe in alien abductions, psychics, ESP, NDE, ghosts, Big Foot, unicorns, and other such nonsense. You are not special – just another silly belief among a bunch of others.

TRACY: “Atheist seem to blame God and religion for all the pain they feel…Pain is going to happen regardless that’s life…”

Atheists do not believe in God, so therefore they do not blame him for their pain in life. What Atheists assert is that pain in life is a testament to the non-existence of God.

Atheists know that pain is going to happen in a natural world governed by chance and chaos. It is a world governed by a loving and intervening god that should not have pain.

TRACY: “but taking God out of the picture is not going to solve nor prove anything…”

Considering that the most civil and moral societies on the planet are also the most Atheistic, I think that is an incorrect assertion. Taking God out of the picture would solve most of man’s problems. We fight over our religious beliefs, we kill in the name of God, we commit atrocities in the name of God, and we bicker over our religious differences (even among denominations of the same religion). Religion is a virus that plagues humankind. The sooner we get rid of it the better humanity will be.

TRACY: “We all are here but for a short while…religion for some is how they deal…”

Exactly. For those that need religion in order to feel better about their death, then more power to them. I do not need religion to feel better about my death or to get rid of fear of death. I do not need religion to make me feel better. You do. So be it and more power to you.

TRACY: “I dont see God as religion…I see a self aware entity…The ultimate scientist…controlling…laws,motion,matter, energy,life…etc.like an energy force that sets the universe turning…You see yourself.”

Evidence? Proof?

TRACY: “Why do evolutionist say that the first humans evolved from monkeys…I especially take offense of the racist undertones of having an ape like creature emerge out of africa naked and dumb with dark skin and big lips…”

Yeah, many white people have a hard time accepting that they descended from black-skinned primates. Especially Christian groups like the KKK, Christian Identity, and others. Even if there ever were an Adam & Eve, they would have been black, not white.

TRACY: “oh I guess if it was found in europe it would appear to walk even more upright and have cream colored skin and be smarter…..missing link….neanderthal man,,,,humonoid.”

Now you are just being stupid. Ignorance is one thing, but do not be stupid on purpose

 

Tracy Rebuttal #002

It is obvious that you govern yourself under the belief system { to not believe}! You live by Atheism and you worship it, Atheism is your Personal Saviour. The Columbine killers were not Christians. One of them was even wearing a shirt that said Natural Selection. So they heard the girl praying and out of hatred for God….they killed her…and you Atheist blame the girl not the killers. You truely have a double standard…I mean no standards. You can not prove to the world that there is no God by your countless lies. Science is not with out flaw that’s why some medications have been pulled from shelves. I prefer to believe in God’s Holy Bible that is the ” In your face” truth than listen to a human being with no direction nor personal convictions. That’s why Atheist kill unborn babies and call it pro-choice. You say you respect my right to believe in God and yes…There will be more power to me! But if I prayed too loud I guess you’d shoot me.

The bible says that unbelievers are willfully ignorant THAT’S being stupid on purpose. I would rather be ignorant to the things of this world than be ignorant to the things of God. I am not saying that learning on this side is not important…I myself am a college student… but I prefer to be well rounded thus I study my Bible as well as my school books..I get the best of both world’s instead of walking around closed minded and confused..I find freedom in it!

Oh and another thing…God was the furthest thing from the columbine killers minds…they were acting out of self motivation much like Atheist do. If they did go to church they probably was forced to by their parents…they were not Holy-Ghost filled born again believers…they carried guns to school not bibles…they wore long black trenchcoats and called themsevles a mafia..they did not fit in at school people were afraid of them…they set around playing secular video games of death and they loved hitler…they were not christians nor were they saved..so stop lying.

 

Response to Tracy #002:

TRACY: “You live by Atheism and you worship it, Atheism is your Personal Saviour.”

If you think that, then you have misunderstood everything I have said. I will admit that I tend to worship the intellectual capacity that humans have; unfortunately, most humans choose to ignore their intellect.

TRACY: “The Columbine killers were not Christians. One of them was even wearing a shirt that said Natural Selection. So they heard the girl praying and out of hatred for God….they killed her…and you Atheist blame the girl not the killers.”

Your assertion that the Columbine killers were not Christians is incorrect. Your assertion that they killed the girl over her religion is incorrect. You have fallen prey to an urban legend that was further perpetuated by Cassie’s mother in her moneymaking book (you know, the book she wrote to take advantage of her daughter’s death).

I do not blame the girl. The shooters are to blame for their actions. At no point did I blame the girl; I simply said that they found her because she was making noise. Witnesses in the library said they did not ask her if she believed in God. Her noise drew them to her, they looked under the table at her, they said “peek-a-boo,” and then they shot her.

For additional information, since you do not believe me, check out some of these:

• Cassie Bernall @ “Truth or Fiction”
• Reprint of Rocky Mountain News article about the hoax
• Salon Magazine article about the hoax
• Religious Tolerance article
• Martyrdom Hoax hits “Hellhouse”

The irony of this tale is that Klebold did ask one girl in the library if she believed in God. Her name was Valeen Schnurr. After Klebold asked her if she believed in God, she said, “Yes.” Then Klebold spared her life and moved on.

TRACY: “You truely have a double standard…I mean no standards.”

I do not have double standards at all. The standards I apply to myself are the same standards I apply to humanity. The key difference between you and I is that you do things in order to get into Heaven and avoid Hell. I do things because they are the right thing to do. Perhaps you can explain to me what makes your method, doing it to avoid punishment and to gain reward, more moral.

TRACY: “You can not prove to the world that there is no God by your countless lies.”

You are right that I cannot prove that a god does not exist. I am not sure why you are going on and on about my lying. I have not told a single lie since we began talking. I have been honest with you from the beginning.

I cannot prove that Zeus does not exist. I cannot prove that Allah does not exist. I cannot prove that Krishna does not exist. I cannot prove that Zoroaster does not exist. I cannot prove that Yahweh does not exist.

I can show that their existence is so unlikely that it is not worth wasting our lives worshiping something we cannot prove to be true.

TRACY: “Science is not with out flaw that’s why some medications have been pulled from shelves.”

No one has averred that science is without flaw. Anything governed by man (including religion) can be mistaken. However, the scientific method is still the best method we have to arrive at the facts and understanding of our surroundings.

The key difference between science and religion is this: science asks the question, looks for an answer, and finds the answer in the evidence, whereas religion has the answer and looks for evidence to support the answer (ignoring all contradictory evidence).

Religion has been wrong before, too (including your Bible). Remember that religion used to think the Sun revolved around the Earth. Religion used to think that the Earth was flat with “four corners” (directly from the Bible). Religion used to think that lightning was angry gods. Religion used to think that earthquakes were angered gods. Luckily, for religion, they have listened to science (even if it took many decades in some cases) and changed their views to the correct one.

If it were not for science, we would still be teaching in schools that our solar system is geocentric instead of heliocentric. We would still be teaching that the Earth is flat instead of an elliptical sphere. We would still be teaching that people get sick because of demons instead of germs.

TRACY: “I prefer to believe in God’s Holy Bible that is the ” In your face” truth than listen to a human being with no direction nor personal convictions.”

Are you saying the Bible does not have any contradictions in it? Are you saying the Bible does not have any errors in it? The Bible says that bats are birds. Do you believe that bats are birds, or do you accept the scientific fact that bats are mammals?

TRACY: “That’s why Atheist kill unborn babies and call it pro-choice.”

LOL. You are funny; I will give you that. I guess you did not realize that Christians receive the majority of abortions in the United States. That is not because Christians. The percentages are higher than one would expect based on population alone. The key factor to abortions is education and economics, but I would not expect you to know that since you only see it as a black and white issue because of your religious book.

TRACY: “You say you respect my right to believe in God and yes…There will be more power to me! But if I prayed too loud I guess you’d shoot me.”

Now you are just being asinine. If you prayed too loud, I would ask you to respect those around you and pray quietly. Remember that Jesus wants you to pray in private, too. Just read Matthew 5:5-6 and see what Jesus has to say about public prayer and praying too loud. I bet you did not even know it was there. I bet you do not know your Bible very well at all.

TRACY: “The bible says that unbelievers are willfully ignorant THAT’S being stupid on purpose.”

The Bible also says that the Bible-God hardens the hearts and minds of people in order to make them non-believers. He does it on purpose according to the Bible. That means that anyone trying to convert Atheists is going against the will of God. Did you know your Bible said that? No, I suppose you did not since I can guarantee that I know more about your Bible than you ever will.

TRACY: “I would rather be ignorant to the things of this world than be ignorant to the things of God. I am not saying that learning on this side is not important…I myself am a college student…”

You are a college student? I must admit that I find that hard to believe based on the level of ignorance you have displayed in this dialogue. I especially find it hard to believe based on the many asinine and absurd comments you have made. If you are in college, I am willing to wager that you are in a Christian college where you will not receive a real education.

TRACY: “If they did go to church they probably was forced to by their parents…they were not Holy-Ghost filled born again believers…they carried guns to school not bibles…they wore long black trenchcoats and called themsevles a mafia..they did not fit in at school people were afraid of them…they set around playing secular video games of death and they loved hitler…they were not christians nor were they saved..so stop lying.”

So what you are saying is that Christians never behave in such a manner? How does that explain the Crusades, Inquisition, witch hunts, decimation of indigenous peoples for Christ, Hitler, anti-Jewish hatred (for killing Jesus), abortion clinic bombings and shootings, the bomb at the Atlanta Olympics, and much, much more?

Once you get over the urban legend of them killing the girl because she says “yes,” you will understand that they spared the girl that actually said “yes.” You are looking at it from the wrong perspective because you believe in what is not true. The other perspective is that they were killing people that teased and taunted them. They were doing the work of God and sending to Hell early. They were continuing the work of the Crusaders, Inquisitors, Conquistadors, and everyone else that killed in the name of God.

After reading that last bit were you offended and upset? Good. Perhaps you know how Atheists feel when you level equally unwarranted and erroneous charges against them.

Stay in school a lot longer… you have much to learn.

 

Tracy Rebuttal #003

Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. Religion may not be the answer but even you have to admit that there are people who do good things in the name of religion and that there are people who do not abuse the bible…because people have tried to interpret the bible their own way…it has caused much confusion..so I apologize for any mud slinging…again it is up to the individual to decide…I am not trying to convert any one…I am not trying to push my religion on any one…People have their own opinions and we are all hoping we’re the right ones…Only God can say….I believe one day he will…I hear this word tolerance and I realize now that no one will tolerate a Christian person but will expect full submission of the Christian…A Christian is not expected to have any rights…but is expected to have tolerance.

 

Response to Tracy #003:

TRACY: “Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion.”

You are correct. The Constitution allows everyone his or her own opinion. The Constitution allows everyone his or her own beliefs. We enjoy religious freedom in this country, which means you have the right to believe in the Bible-God, your neighbor has the right to believe in the Qur’an-God, and I have the right not to believe in any of the gods.

TRACY: “Religion may not be the answer but even you have to admit that there are people who do good things in the name of religion and that there are people who do not abuse the bible…”

Yes, there have been people that have done good things in the name of religion. That is why I do not like to play the “guilty by association card.” Every group would be guilty of such if we followed the biblical rule of “the sins of the fathers…”

The only reason I even brought up the Crusades, Inquisition, and others is that you were trying to tie Atheists together under the misconception that the Columbine shooters were Atheists. You tried to play the “guilty by association card,” and I simply reminded you that Christianity is not free from such guilt.

My point of contention of “good in the name of religion” is this: is it really a good thing (a moral thing) if it is done in order to receive a reward (Heaven) or to prevent punishment (Hell)? Is it not more moral for someone to do something simply because it is the right thing to do and not because we are afraid of going to Hell or to make sure we get to Heaven? It would seem that if an Atheist and a Christian fed the homeless at Thanksgiving, that the Atheist would be doing the more moral act because he or she is doing it because it is the right thing to do, whereas the Christian is doing it in order to look good in the eyes of his or her god.

TRACY: “…so I apologize for any mud slinging…”

Apology accepted. I return the apology for any return mud slinging that I did.

TRACY: “again it is up to the individual to decide…”

That is the beauty of religious freedom. Each of us can decide on our own whether or not we want to be religious and what religion we want to believe in. I may not agree with you theologically, and I may even think your beliefs are “silly,” but that does not mean I do not support your right to believe in what you do.

TRACY: “I hear this word tolerance and I realize now that no one will tolerate a Christian person but will expect full submission of the Christian…A Christian is not expected to have any rights…but is expected to have tolerance.”

Tolerance is the wrong word to use, anyway. I think it is more apropos to use the word acceptance. No one should be “tolerated.” It is a negative word for the person that people tolerate and the persons having to tolerate something. I would not want to know that someone hated me but was just tolerating me in order to be nice. That is not a moral thing to do. However, I think if someone accepted me for who I was, even if they disagreed with me, then that would be a much kinder thing to do – a more humanitarian way of looking at things. Do not tolerate anybody, but accept him or her for whom or what he or she is.

Christians have the same rights as everyone else. Everyone is equal under the Constitution. The history of Christianity, and its present-day course under the reign of Evangelicals like Falwell, Robertson, and Dobson, place Christianity (in the US, anyway) at odds with the Constitution. Christianity, by its theological nature, is a proselytizing and public religion. This means that most Christians, especially since they are the majority, want special rights beyond what the Constitution grants.

How many times have you heard Christians say, “But we are the majority!” Christians seem to be in the mindset that because they are the majority that they can get whatever they want, that they can have a “Christian nation.” The Constitution prevents this because everyone is equal: no matter how small or big his or her group is.

The Constitution gives us individual personal rights – not group rights. We cannot amass our individual rights in order to give ourselves more rights than those that are smaller. The Constitution provides for freedoms as long as those freedoms do not infringe upon the rights of others.

You have the right to be a Christian, but you do not have the right to violate the rights of others in order to practice your religion.

Do you understand the difference? You can believe that homosexuals are an abomination unto the Lord all you want, but you cannot use the Bible to prevent homosexuals from having the same rights as you. You can believe that Atheists are Satanists, but you cannot use the Bible to prevent Atheists from having the same rights as you.

To understand better, imagine that the United States was majority Muslim and you were among the minority religion of Christian. How would you feel if Allah were all over the money, in the Pledge of Allegiance, spoken by public officials at every public rally, and in every part of your life? You could not escape it. The Muslim majority frowned upon you and made your life miserable by ostracizing your children at school and discriminating against you at work.

If you can understand how you would feel in that situation, then you will understand how Atheists and minority religions feel on a daily basis in the United States. Luckily, we have a Constitution to protect us against an unruly majority that has no regards for the rights of the minority.

And that was the last I heard from Tacy…