Debate 026: Terry and Blair discuss creationism and Pascal’s Wager

Terry Rebuttal #001:

HI, MY NAME IS TERRY, I HAVE A FRIEND THAT IS AN ATHEIST AND IM TRYING TO SHARE GOD WITH HIM, BUT HE REFERRED ME TO THIS SITE. AND I WOULD LIKE TO DEBATE YOU ON A FEW THOUGHTS. I WOULD BE INTERESTED FIRST IN YOUR THOUGHTS ON: IF IM RIGHT AND THERE IS A GOD AND A HELL THEN THE BEST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN IS I WOULD GO TO HEAVEN, BUT IF YOU ARE RIGHT THE WORST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN TO ME IS I WOULD ROT AWAY IN A GRAVE. HOWEVER, WITH YOUR BELIEF, IF YOU ARE WRONG THE BEST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN IS YOU WILL BE IN A GRAVE ROTTING AWAY BUT IF YOU ARE WRONG YOU WILL SPEND ETERNITY IN HELL. NOW I AM NOT TRYING TO PREACH HELLFIRE DAMNATION TO YOU NOW , IT IS JUST THE COLD HARD TRUTH. MY QUESTION TO YOU IS OF THE TWO ALTERNATIVES IT SEEMS THAT BELIEVING IN GOD IS THE NO BRAINER. IT’S NO MYSTERY THAT CHRISTIANITY AND EVOLUTION ARE BOTH RELIGIOUS IN THAT IT TAKES FAITH TO BELIEVE EITHER ONE. IN MY OPINION IT TAKES MORE FAITH TO BELIEVE EVOLUTION THAN TO BELIEVE THAT AN INTELLIGENT BEING CREATED THIS WHOLE COSMOS.

THE OTHER THING I ASK YOU IS FOR A REFERENCE FOR THE STATEMENT THAT YOU MADE IN A DEBATE WITH CLAY THAT SOUTHERN BAPTIST HAVE A QUOTA TO MEET IN ORDER TO GET INTO HEAVEN OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT. I AM A BAPTIST BUT NOT A SOUTHERN BAPTIST, BUT I DO KNOW THAT SOUTHERN BAPTIST DO NOT BELIEVE THEY GET TO HEAVEN BY ANYTHING BUT FAITH. THAT STATEMENT ABOUT THEM IS AN ERRONEOUS STATEMENT, UNLESS YOU HAVE A REFERENCE THAT YOU GOT THAT FROM.

IF YOU DO HAVE A REFERENCE, THEN THAT PERSON IS ABOUT AS IGNORANT AS THE MAJORITY OF THE OTHER CHRISTIANS. I CONFESS THAT MOST CHURCH MEMBERS PROBALLY WILL NOT GET INTO TO HEAVEN DUE TO THEIR FAKE IMPERSONATIONS AS CHRISTIANS, BUT I CONFESS THE IGNORANCE OF 90%+ CHURCH MEMBERS DO NOT EVER PICK THEIR BIBLE EXCEPT ON SUNDAY MORNING ABOUT 11:00 AM. I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO THIS DISCUSSION. AND I WILL TRY MY BEST TO GO BY YOUR RULES SEEING THAT THIS IS YOUR WEBSITE. YOU ARE PROBALLY LIKE ME IN THAT I LIKE TO TRIP PEOPLE UP IN THEIR ON BELIEFS WITH TRUTH. I AM A FIREFIGHTER AND WORK A CRAZY SCHEDULE BUT I WILL MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO RETURN ALL REBUTTALS AS PROMPTLY AS POSSIBLE.GOOD DAY.

 

Response to Terry #001:

First let me thank you for your comments and feedback; they are greatly appreciated. Would you also please pass on my gratitude to your friend for his kind referral to my website.

Allow me to address the issues you raised independently.

TERRY: “I WOULD BE INTERESTED FIRST IN YOUR THOUGHTS ON: IF IM RIGHT AND THERE IS A GOD AND A HELL THEN THE BEST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN IS I WOULD GO TO HEAVEN, BUT IF YOU ARE RIGHT THE WORST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN TO ME IS I WOULD ROT AWAY IN A GRAVE. HOWEVER, WITH YOUR BELIEF, IF YOU ARE WRONG THE BEST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN IS YOU WILL BE IN A GRAVE ROTTING AWAY BUT IF YOU ARE WRONG YOU WILL SPEND ETERNITY IN HELL.”

This type of “logic” originated with Blaise Pascal in what has become known as Pascal’s Wager.

Simply put, Pascal’s Wager goes something like this:

Either the believer or the non-believer will be correct – one of them has to be wrong.

  • If you are a believer and you are correct – then you will be rewarded with eternal life.
  • If you are a non-believer and you are correct – then you will die and nothing will happen.
  • If you are a believer and you are wrong – then will you will die and nothing will happen.
  • If you are a non-believer and you are wrong – then you will be punished with eternal damnation in the pits of hell.

Therefore, if you are a believer you have a chance of eternal life in the Kingdom of Heaven – even if you are wrong. If you are a nonbeliever you have zero chance. Why should we not be a believer? Just in case the believers are right?

Pascal’s Wager has been proven wrong countless times and shown to have serious defects. I have to admit that I find it odd that mainstream and sect Christians are using Pascal’s Wager since Pascal used it to convert people to Jansenism. That issue aside, there are many reasons the Wager does not work. Instead of repeating myself, I would refer you to the web page where I address Pascal’s Wager specifically: What If You Are Wrong?

If you are still confused or have additional questions after reading that page, please let me know and I will be more than happy to address any you bring up.

TERRY: “MY QUESTION TO YOU IS OF THE TWO ALTERNATIVES IT SEEMS THAT BELIEVING IN GOD IS THE NO BRAINER.”

What would lead you to that conclusion? Do you have evidence of God’s existence that apologists and theologians have failed to produce? In order for something to be a “no brainer” there must be substantial evidence in favor of it. The lack of evidence (100% lack of evidence) for God would immediately disqualify God as a “no brainer” contestant. If you have substantial proof of your God then I’d be happy to hear about it.

TERRY: “IN MY OPINION IT TAKES MORE FAITH TO BELIEVE EVOLUTION THAN TO BELIEVE THAT AN INTELLIGENT BEING CREATED THIS WHOLE COSMOS.”

If you believe that it takes faith to accept the scientific validity of the Theory of Evolution through the means of Natural Selection then you do not understand the Theory of Evolution at all. Anyone that understands the Theory of Evolution does not question the evidence or make a declaration of faith in regards to the theory. If there is anything about the Theory of Evolution that you do not understand I will be more than happy to help you understand it. What makes you draw such a conclusion if not ignorance of the Theory of Evolution itself?

TERRY: “THE OTHER THING I ASK YOU IS FOR A REFERENCE FOR THE STATEMENT THAT YOU MADE IN A DEBATE WITH CLAY THAT SOUTHERN BAPTIST HAVE A QUOTA TO MEET IN ORDER TO GET INTO HEAVEN OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT.”

That statement was not a factual statement, but a statement of jest. I was joking that as much as Southern Baptists try to convert that they, like State Troopers, must meet a conversion quote in order to get into Heaven. It was a joke and not intended to be taken as a literal statement.

TERRY: “IF YOU DO HAVE A REFERENCE, THEN THAT PERSON IS ABOUT AS IGNORANT AS THE MAJORITY OF THE OTHER CHRISTIANS.”

What does that say about the person that took that statement as fact instead of jest or sarcasm?

TERRY: “…BUT I CONFESS THE IGNORANCE OF 90%+ CHURCH MEMBERS DO NOT EVER PICK THEIR BIBLE EXCEPT ON SUNDAY MORNING ABOUT 11:00 AM.”

You can confess if you must, but I’d be willing to wager that Atheists and other non-believers no more about the Bible than most Christians (yourself included). It is the knowledge of the Bible that makes an Atheist. It is the lack of knowledge in the churches that keeps the pews full. If every Christian knew the history of the Bible and knew more about the Bible then they would no longer be attending church.

TERRY: “YOU ARE PROBALLY [SIC] LIKE ME IN THAT I LIKE TO TRIP PEOPLE UP IN THEIR ON BELIEFS WITH TRUTH.”

No offense, but I have not seen any truth from you yet. I have read about your beliefs and your speculations. I have read about your ideas and convictions, but I have not seen any truth. I’m looking forward to hearing it, though.

TERRY: “I AM A FIREFIGHTER AND WORK A CRAZY SCHEDULE…”

Allow me to take this opportunity to applaud your actions as a firefighter. There are three professions in this world that are relied on heavily: firefighters, police, and teachers. Those same three professions are also the most underpaid professions. Anyone that has the dedication to take on one of those services deserves kudos from all. You have my deepest appreciation for that.

 

Terry Rebuttal #002:

I CERTAINLY APPRECIATE YOUR RESPONSE TO MY EMAIL AND I WAS NOT TRYING TO GET INTO ANY HEAVY SUBJECTS IN MY INITIAL EMAIL JUST A LITTLE SOMETHING TO GET THE BALL ROLLING. NOW I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW A FEW THINGS FROM YOU : WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE BIBLE? DOES IT CONTAIN ANY TRUTH OR DO YOU THINK THE WHOLE THING IS A FAIRYTALE?

CONCERNING PASCHAL, YOUR WEB SITE DID NOT WORK ON THIS LINK, SO I NEED TO KNOW WHAT YOU MEANT BY DEFECTS IN THE THEORY. ALSO I DID NOT EVEN KNOW WHO HE WAS UNTIL YOU BROUGHT IT UP AND YOU MADE ME DO RESEARCH AND I APPRECIATE THAT, I NOW KNOW WHO HE IS SO I HAVE ALREADY LEARNED SOMETHING THANKS. I DID NOT GET INTO HIS BELIEFS TOO HEAVILY, BUT IF YOU ARE WONDERING WHY CHRISTIANS ARE USING HIS THEORY DUE TO THE FACT THAT HE CONVERTED PEOPLE TO JANSENISM THEN I DO NOT SEE WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THAT BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN PREDESTINATION AND LEAN TOWARD CALVINISTIC VIEWS. ALSO, SO IT IS NOT A SHOT IN MY ARM TO SIDE WITH HIM ON THAT ISSUE. NOW THIS IS NOT A ENDORSEMENT OF ALL HIS BELIEFS BUT JUST THE PREDESTINATION WHICH I BELIEVE YOU WERE PROBALLY REFERRING TO WHEN YOU SAID YOU WERE SURPRISED TO SEE CHRISTIANS USING HIS THEORY. I DISAGREE WITH YOU THAT HE ORIGINATED THE THEORY BECAUSE I USED IT IN MY OPENING EMAIL TO YOU, I HAD NO IDEA HE EXISTED, BUT LIKE ME, I ASSUME HE TOOK THAT “LOGIC” FROM THE BIBLE WHICH IS TRUE AND I BELIEVE EVERY WORD OF IT IS TRUE AND WAS WRITTEN BEFORE HIS TIME, SO IT COULD NOT HAVE ORIGINATED WITH HIM. IT IS PLAIN AND SIMPLE WE HAVE BELIEVERS AND NON BELIEVERS IN THIS WORLD AND I UNDERSTAND THERE ARE DIFFERENCES… I.E. ATHEIST, AGNOSTICS, REINCARNATIONIST, ETC.. BUT TO MAKE ALL THAT MORE SIMPLER- EITHER WE ARE ALL GONNA ROT IN A GRAVE AND CEASE TO EXIST OR THERE ARE TWO KIND OF PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD THOSE WHO ARE GOING TO HEAVEN AND THOSE WHO ARE GOING TO HELL. SO BASED ON THE TWO BELIEF SYSTEMS YOU CAN CONCLUDE THAT PASCALS THEORY IS NOT SOMETHING IT TAKES A PHYSICIST TO COME UP WITH , BUT IT’S SO SIMPLE THAT A CHILD CAN UNDERSTAND (A CHILD OLD ENOUGH TO COMPREHEND) IT. I AM NOT A COLLEGE EDUCATED PERSON BUT ALL IT TOOK FOR ME TO FIGURE OUT PASCHALS THEORY WAS COMMON SENSE. I THINK AND CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG, YOU WOULD PROBALLY SAY ONE OF TWO THINGS AND THATS “THAT THERE EITHER IS A GOD OR THERE IS NOT” AND THATS THE TWO GENERAL BELIEFS IN THIS WORLD, ONE CARRIES REWARDS AND THE OTHER PUNISHMENT LEADING ONE TO THE CONCLUSION IF THERE IS A GOD I MUST BELIEVE OR I DONT BELIEVE AND TAKE A CHANCE OF BEING WRONG AND FRIEND ETERNITY IS A LONG TIME TO BE WRONG.

WE DO NOT EVEN NEED TO ADDRESS THE IF I’M RIGHT STUFF OR IF YOU ARE WRONG STUFF BECAUSE THATS IRRELEVANT, FIGURING OUT IF THERE IS A GOD IS THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE FOR A HUMAN, DUE TO THE FACT THAT IT IS THE ONLY BELIEF THAT CARRIES CONSEQUENCES, IF EVOLUTION IS TRUE THEN WHO CARES WHAT HAPPENS AFTER DEATH BECAUSE THERE IS NO CONSEQUENCES THERE, SO THERE IS NO NEED TO SAY IF YOU ARE RIGHT (ATHEISM) THEN THE WORST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN TO ME IS ILL DECAY IN THE GRAVE.SO WHAT? WHAT ONE SHOULD SAY IS THERE ARE THINGS IN THE BIBLE THAT SCARE ME IF IT’S TRUE SUCH AS THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH, WHOSOEVERS NAME IS NOT WRITTEN IN THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE SHALL BE CAST IN THE LAKE OF FIRE, THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT CONCERN ME, NOT MUTATION AND NATURAL SELECTION AND THE BIG BANG BECAUSE THOSE THINGS HAVE NO ETERNAL THREAT TO ME. SO I BELIEVE BEFORE ONE DECIDES TO DENY GOD THEY BETTER MAKE DARN SURE THEY ARE RIGHT, FOR EXAMPLE BEFORE I WOULD BELIEVE EVOLUTION WHICH HAS NO ETERNAL THREATS I WOULD HAVE TO HAVE EVIDENCE IN MY HAND, BECAUSE IT IS NOT GOOD TO TRUST IN MAN, MAN WILL LET YOU DOWN, I WOULD NEED TO HAVE BEEN THERE WHEN THE BIG BANG HAPPENED OR KNOW SOMEONE RELIABLE WHO WAS THERE, BEFORE I BASE MY ETERNITY ON IT. I KNOW THAT THERE WAS NO ONE THERE TO WITNESS IT SO UNTIL SOMEONE SHOWS UP, THERE IS NO WAY I’LL BELIEVE IT. SCIENTIST ONE DAY SAY VITAMIN C WILL REDUCE YOUR RISK FOR CANCER THEN A WEEK LATER IT CAUSES CANCER. THEY ARE SO WISHY WASHY IT’S HARDLY A RESPECTFUL OCCUPATION FOR ME AND I KNOW THEY DO SOME USEFUL STUDIES BUT THEY ARE NOT RELIABLE ENOUGH TO BANK YOUR ETERNITY ON.

NOW YOU ASKED IF I HAD PROOF AND THE ANSWER IS NO. I AM NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE PROOF BECAUSE GOD SAID IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH. THERE IS NO SIGN THERE HE TRIED TO PROVE HIMSELF SO NEITHER WILL I BECAUSE I CANNOT. THIS RELIGIOUS CONCEPT IS ALL BASED ON FAITH. IF I COULD SEE GOD AND PROVE HIM IT WOULD NOT BE FAITH. FAITH IS THE SUBSTANCE OF THINGS HOPED FOR THE EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN. THEREFORE WE CAN NOT SEE HIM PHYSICALLY BUT ONLY SPIRITUALLY. NOW PHYSICALLY THE HEAVENS DECLARE HIS GLORY BUT HE DID NOT SET OUT TO PROVE HIMSELF, NEITHER WILL I, HE SIMPLY SAID REPENT AND BELIEVE AND THATS ALL HE IS OFFERING. THE HUMANIST SAID TO JESUS “YEAH RIGHT YOU WILL REBUILD THIS TEMPLE IN THREE DAYS”. BUT JESUS WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE EARTHLY TEMPLE HE WAS SPEAKING OF HIS RESURRECTION. THATS HOW MEN WHO ARE LOOKING FOR A SIGN ACT TODAY, THERE ARE NO SIGNS, IT IS WHOLLY FAITH. THIS MEANS I CANNOT PROVE GOD, IT WOULD GO AGAINST ONE OF THE MAJOR DOCTRINES OF MY RELIGION WHICH IS FAITH. OK IT’S YOUR TURN, PLEASE IF YOU CAN, WOULD YOU PRESENT ME WITH SOME EVIDENCE THAT EVOLUTION IS TRUE BECAUSE IN MY RESEARCH I’VE NOT SEEN ANYTHING THAT IS WRIITTEN IN STONE TO PROVE TO ME ANY OF IT IS TRUE. I’M NOT TALKING MILLIONS OF THINGS, JUST A COUPLE THAT ARE CONCRETE .THE ONLY THING I BELIEVE IS THAT MICROEVOLUTION IS TRUE BECAUSE I CAN SEE IT, LIKE GRAVITY I BELIEVE IN IT BECAUSE IT IS FAIL PROOF IT IS SOUND, AND MAN WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE IN GOD WILL BE LIKE NOT BELIEVING IN GRAVITY, IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN GRAVITY AND JUMP FROM A BUILDING YOU WILL STILL BE SUBJECT TO IT AND SO WILL HE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE IN GOD WILL STILL BE SUBJECT TO HIM. I REMIND YOU ALSO THAT ALL MY LOGIC IS BASED ON BELIEVING IN SOMETHING WHICH HAS CONSEQUENCES. FOR INSTANCE YOU MAY RESPOND BACK TO ME AND SAY MAN WROTE THE BIBLE WHICH I DO NOT BELIEVE, BUT MY POINT IS THAT MY BELIEF HAS REWARDS NOT CONSEQUENCES SO IT DOES NOT MATTER IF I AM WRONG IT ONLY MATTERS IF YOU’RE WRONG.

DEAR FRIEND, I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A SINCERE PERSON BUT IF YOU ARE SINCERELY WRONG IT WON’T HAVE NO MERIT WITH GOD ,WHO IS THE ONE THAT POURS OUT THE CONSEQUENCES.THE BIG BANG HAS ONLY A MODEL THAT SOME MAN BUILT WHICH I UNDERSTAND DID NOT EVEN HAVE THE RIGHT GASES TO DUPLICATE IT, BUT PEOPLE BELIEVE IT AS SCIENCE. I AM SURE THERE IS A MODEL OF NOAHS ARK SOMEWHERE BUT ARE YOU GONNA BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE BECAUSE YOU SEEN A MODEL OF THE ARK? NO I WOULD WANT TO SEE THE REAL THING BEFORE I RISK ETERNITY. WOULD YOU PLEASE GIVE ME A GOOD DEFINITION OF SCIENCE. MY DEFINITION IS THAT SCIENCE MUST BE OBSERVED, MEASURED AND TESTED, I WILL DISCUSS THIS MORE AFTER I SEE YOUR DEFINITION AND REBUTTAL.

BACK TO PASCHAL- ORIGINATING -WHICH I DIASAGREE WITH YOU ON. TEST SOME OF THESE SUPPOSED ORIGINATIONS.

1. WHO WAS THE FIRST PERSON THAT DISCOVERED THE EARTH WAS ROUND AND NOT FLAT. 1475 COPRENICUS DISCOVERED THAT, BUT 2000 YEARS EARLIER THE BIBLE DECLARED IT. IS 40:22,JOB 26:7

2. IN 1615, WILLIAM HARVEY MADE A BRILLANT DISCOVERY THAT THE LIFE OF THE FLESH IS IN THE BLOOD AND I CAN CONFIRM THAT BECAUSE I AM ALSO A PARAMEDIC AND IF YOUR BLOOD IS NOT PUMPING ,YOUR BODY IS NOT LIVING. THE BIBLE HAD DECLARED THAT ALSO 3000 YEARS EARLIER IN LEV 17:11.

3. IN THE 1840’s, LORD ROSSE WITH HIS NEWEST INVENTED SUPER TELESCOPE DISCOVERED THE GREAT EMPTY SPACE OVER THE NORTH BUT JOB DECLARED THAT WAY BEFORE LORD ROSSE DID. JOB 26:7

YOU SEE NONE OF THOSE MEN WERE THE ORIGINALS AND THE BIBLE WAS TRUTHFUL IN THOSE THREE THINGS BEFORE MAN WITH HIS EGOTISTICAL SELF STEPPED IN. YOU SEE, I THINK WE WOULD PROBALLY DISCOVER MORE SCIENCE IF WE WOULD GO TO THE BIBLE FIRST TO FIND THE IDEAS. IT IS NOT WHETHER WE CAN PROVE THE BIBLE TRUE, IT’S CAN YOU PROVE IT WRONG. IF THE ABOVE OR BELOW EXAMPLES ARE TRUE THEN THE PART ABOUT JESUS AND HELL MAY ALSO BE TRUE. RESEARCH IF YOU LIKE, BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE JESUS AND THE PARTS ABOUT HELL ARE TRUE AND IT WILL SAVE YOU ALOT OF TIME. I AM JUST AS CONVICTED THAT I AM RIGHT AS YOU ARE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT SO DO NOT HOLD THIS AGAINST ME OR MISUNDERSTAND THAT I AM BEING SARCASTIC BECAUSE I AM NOT, IT’S JUST THAT JESUS IS MY STORY AND I AM STICKING TO IT.

OTHER EXAMPLES

4. WHAT ABOUT THE UNDER SEA CURRENTS THE BIBLE TALKED ABOUT WAY BEFORE MATTHEW MAURY DISCOVERED IT AS A MATTER OF FACT HE READ IT IN THE BIBLE AND THEN WENT TO DISCOVER IT, THIS IS WHAT I CALL A SMART SCIENTIST. PSALM 8:8

5. THE ATMOSPHERE HAS WEIGHT JOB 28:25, THEN THIS WAS DISCOVERED IN THE 1600’s BY GALILEO?

6. I KNOW YOU WILL RUBUKE THIS BUT THE UNIVERSE IS RUNNING DOWN BY THE 2nd LAW OF THERMO DYNAMICS PS 102:25-26. NOW I KNOW ATHEIST DO NOT AGREE WITH CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST ON THIS, BUT I HAVE NOT SEEN ONE PROVE IT WRONG YET.

7. TRILLIONS OF STARS IN OUTER SPACE, SEE GEN 22:17 AND JER 32:22.

8. THE UNIVERSE IS EXPANDING PS 104:2 ISA 42:5 IS THIS TRUE THAT OUR WHOLE SOLAR SYSTEM IS BEING HURLED INTO OUTER SPACE AT 600,000 MILES PER HOUR, THE BIBLE DECLARED IT.

9. WHERE DID THE DAY NIGHT CALENDER COME FROM? I’LL GO ON THE LIMB HERE AND SUGGEST THAT MAN TOOK THIS IDEA FROM GEN 1 IT HAD BEEN DECLARED.

10. IT SHOWS US THERE ARE WATER FOUNTAINS UNDER THE OCEANS , SEE JOB 38:16,PRO 8:28.

11. IT SHOWS US THE HYDROLOGIC CYCLE OF WATER ECCL 1:7, GALILEO DISCOVERED EVAPORATION AND CONDENSATION OF WATER IN 1630.

12. IT SHOWS US LIGHT CAN BE PARTED JOB 38:24. WHITE LIGHT WHILE PASSING THRU THE PRISM CAN BE SEPERATED INTO SEVEN COLORS. THIS WAS NOT DISCOVERED UNTO 1600’s.

13. IT SHOWS US HOW THE SUN IS THE SOURCE OF THE EARTH’S WIND SYSTEM JOB 38:24. MIND YOU ALSO THAT JOB IS ONE OF THE OLDEST BOOKS IN THE BIBLE.

14. IT SHOWS US THE WINDS DO BLOW IN CIRCUIT ECC 1:6

15. IT SHOWS US THE PRACTICE OF CIRCUMCISION ON THE EIGHT DAY.

GOD KNEW THAT BLEEDING WOULD BE MINIMIZED IF CIRCUMCISION WAS DONE ON THE EIGHT DAY. PROTHROMBIN IS MADE IN LIVER AND BECOMES WELL DEPLETED AND DOES NOT REPLENISH UNTIL THE EIGHT DAY.

ALL THAT IS PROOF ENOUGH TO ME.

NOW THE BIBLE SAYS THAT ALL THINGS WILL YIELD BY SEED AFTER IT’S OWN KIND. DO YOU HAVE PROOF THAT ANYTHING EVER TURNED INTO SOMETHING ELSE, FOR INSTANCE HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A MAN TURN INTO AND APE OR VICE VERSA, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A PLANT TURN INTO A CAT? I DO NOT THINK ANYBODY HAS EVER SEEN THIS PHENOMENON. WILLIE BEE, WAS A WELL KNOWN APE IN THE ATLANTA AREA HERE WHERE I LIVE, BUT HE HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN APE. THEY SAY THAT ALL THESE MACROEVOLUTIONARY THINGS HAPPENED BUT HOW COME THEY ARE NOT FINDING MORE OF THESE CREATURES THAT ARE HALF AND HALF. RIGHT NOW AND MAYBE YOU CAN AT LEAST GIVE ME A BETTER ILLUSTRATION, BUT RIGHT NOW THIS IS HOW I SEE EVOLUTION: I SEE A EXPLOSION HAPPENING AT THE FORD PLANT WITHOUT THE NECCESSARY FIRE TETRAHEDRON AND PIECES OF METAL FLYING ACROSS THE SKY AND LANDING IN MY DRIVEWAY ASSEMBLING THEMSELVES INTO A BRAND NEW 3001 ( I MEAN 3000 FOR METAPHORIC ADVANCEMENT, WHICH THE HUMAN BODY REFLECTS AN ADVANCED MACHINE) MUSTANG CONVERTIBLE. HARDLY! NOW AT THIS POINT YOU ARE PROBALLY THINKING NOW I KNOW THIS GUY IS IGNORANT OF EVOLUTION, BUT I WANT TO ASSURE YOU THAT I HAVE READ COUNTLESS HOURS ON EVOLUTION AND THEY DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING OUT MORE THAN DR BOTTLESTOPPER SAYS IN THE SCIENCE FIELD TODAY THAT “HE THINKS THAT WHAT MAY HAVE HAPPEN BILLIONS OF YEARS AGO IS THAT THERE WAS A BIG BANG. I NEED MORE THAN SOMEBODY THINKING, I THINK I CAN SING BUT THERE WILL BE ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO WILL DISAGREE WITH ME, SOMEBODY WROTE A COUNTRY SONG CALLED “THIS AIN’T NO THINKING THING” AND THAT’S RIGHT IT IS NOT A THINKING THING BECAUSE ETERNAL LIFE IS AT STAKE HERE. THERE IS TWO PEOPLE AND I DON’T MEAN ALL BUT MOST SCIENTIST AND THEOLOGIANS ARE TO SMART FOR THEIR ON GOOD. THEY WOULD RATHER USE THEORY,S THAN COMMON SENSE.

FOR INSTANCE OUR BASEBALL COACH HERE BOBBY [name deleted by Blair] MAKES ME SO MAD WHEN HE PINCH HITS A BATTER TO BAT AGAINST THE OPPOSITE HAND PITCHER, THERE HAS BEEN MANY CLUTCH HITS FROM RIGHT HAND BATTERS AGAINST RIGHT HAND PITCHERS, THE COMMON SENSE THING ALWAYS COME THRU. FOR INSTANCE IT’S COMMON SENSE FOR ME TO SPELL THRU THIS WAY BECAUSE IT’S LESS TYPING AND THE POINT IS STILL CLEAR. WHEN ARE WE GONNA QUIT LETTING STATISTICS AND THEORY’S RULE THIS PLACE.

STATISTICS ARE STATISTICS BUT COMMON SENSE IS THE WAY. IF THIS IS TOO MUCH INFO FOR ONE ROUND PLEASE LET ME KNOW AND I WILL SHORTEN IT. ALSO I HOPE TO CONTINUE THIS DIALOGUE WITH YOU BECAUSE MY GOAL IS NOT TO CONVERT YOU ALTHOUGH IT WOULD ANSWER ONE OF MY PRAYERS, BUT ONE OF THE PURPOSES IS TO DEBATE OPPONENTS OF MY BELIEF SO THAT I WILL BE FORCED TOO DIG DEEPER AND MATURE MY KNOWLEDGE AND FAITH. IF YOU EVER HAVE TROUBLE SENDING A REBUTTAL TO [email address deleted by Blair] BECAUSE OF THEIR TECHNICAL ISSUES AND THEY HAVE BEEN HAVING ALOT OF THEM WITH EMAIL THEN MY ALTERNATIVE AND MORE SECURE SERVICE IS AOL. I WOULD PREFER YOU MOVE THIS WHOLE DEBATE TO CASE SENSITIVE [email address deleted by Blair] IF IT IS NOT TOO MUCH TROUBLE, IF IT IS WE CAN STAY HERE ,THAT WILL BE FINE, ALTHOUGH THEY ARE NOT DEPENDABLE JUST CHEAPER. IF YOU CARE TO, I WOULD LIKE YOU TO LOOK UP PROVERBS 1524 IT IS MY FAVORITE VERSE. BUT BE SURE TO LOOK IT UP IN THE KJV. ALSO IF YOU LIKE, I WILL GIVE YOU AN EXPLANATION AS TO WHY I SAID KJV WHICH WILL BE A RATHER LENGTHY EMAIL. ALSO IF YOU WOULD CARE TO KNOW MY DENOMINATION AND MY MAJOR BELIEFS LET ME KNOW ON YOUR NEXT REBUTTAL AND I WILL GLADLY TELL YOU. BUT I WILL LET YOU KNOW THAT I AM MORE CONSERVATIVE THAN BUSH I AM A REPUBLICAN AND I TOTALLY 100% AGREE WITH SHAWN HANNITY. THANKS LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR REBUTTAL. I AM SENDING THIS TO THE FRIEND THAT REFERRED ME TO YOUR SITE TO KEEP HIM INFORMED OF OUR DIALOGUE AT HIS REQUEST I AM SURE YOU DO NOT MIND. THANKS

Response to Terry #002:

TERRY: “WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE BIBLE? DOES IT CONTAIN ANY TRUTH OR DO YOU THINK THE WHOLE THING IS A FAIRYTALE?”

There is some truth in the Bible. It is obvious that the Bible mentions historical figures and places – as most works of fiction do. The fact that the Bible contains such references does not validate the book in its entirety. It is obvious that a lot of the Bible is mythology intertwined with historical references to put things into perspective for the reader. This is a common practice for all fictional works – it allows the readers to immerse themselves into the story better.

There are historically accurate references to legitimate cities, people, and government positions in the book Escape from New York, but that does not make the book a work of non-fiction. These references allow the reader to better imagine the story line and understand the context. If books did not use realistic concepts and reference terms and places that the readers understood, we might as well be reading gobbledygook.

The issue for most Christians is discerning the historicity from the mythology. For example, we know that the Noachian flood did not occur. If we cannot rely on the factuality of this story, then how do we ascertain what in the Bible is factual and what is mythological? How do you discern what is a metaphor and what is historic? This has been a problem for Christian apologists since the years before the Council of Nicea.

What do you take literally and what to you take metaphorically? If we know that parts of the Bible are fictional, how can we trust the rest of it, and more importantly, who decides what is historical and fictional? Obviously, archaeologists have done their part to prove some parts, but they have also dismantled others and proved them false. This, of course, further exacerbates the dilemma for the Christian and Jewish apologist.

TERRY: “CONCERNING PASCHAL, YOUR WEB SITE DID NOT WORK ON THIS LINK, SO I NEED TO KNOW WHAT YOU MEANT BY DEFECTS IN THE THEORY.”

Sorry about that. I was in the middle of moving my web page to a new permanent location. Atheism Awareness is now located at Alabama Atheist. The page with Pascal’s Wager is at: What If You Are Wrong?

TERRY: “NOW THIS IS NOT A ENDORSEMENT OF ALL HIS BELIEFS BUT JUST THE PREDESTINATION WHICH I BELIEVE YOU WERE PROBALLY (sic) REFERRING TO WHEN YOU SAID YOU WERE SURPRISED TO SEE CHRISTIANS USING HIS THEORY.”

That is one reason for my surprise at the Christian insistence of using Pascal’s Wager. The other reasons are detailed on the page above, which includes the faults in the theory and the fact that it has been shown to be invalid for hundreds of years.

TERRY: “I DISAGREE WITH YOU THAT HE ORIGINATED THE THEORY BECAUSE I USED IT IN MY OPENING EMAIL TO YOU, I HAD NO IDEA HE EXISTED, BUT LIKE ME, I ASSUME HE TOOK THAT “LOGIC” FROM THE BIBLE WHICH IS TRUE AND I BELIEVE EVERY WORD OF IT IS TRUE AND WAS WRITTEN BEFORE HIS TIME, SO IT COULD NOT HAVE ORIGINATED WITH HIM.”

While Pascal based his wager on the Bible, it is still his wager. The exact wager – the formatting of the “ifs” is his. The use of that argument is known as Pascal’s Wager to this day because he wrote in a way that was familiar with everyone, was easily understandable, and was, in lack of other words, simple. Simple as it may be, that does not preclude it from being seriously flawed. If the wager is biblically based, then the logical conclusion is that the biblical version of the argument is equally flawed.

As to you believing that every word in the Bible is true, I am sure we will get more into that as the debate continues – so there is no point in dissecting such a statement right now.

TERRY: “BUT TO MAKE ALL THAT MORE SIMPLER- EITHER WE ARE ALL GONNA ROT IN A GRAVE AND CEASE TO EXIST OR THERE ARE TWO KIND OF PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD THOSE WHO ARE GOING TO HEAVEN AND THOSE WHO ARE GOING TO HELL.”

You have biased the argument to reflect your specific religious beliefs. There are thousands of religions in the world and not all of them believe in Heaven and Hell. What if the Norsemen were right and we’re all going to Valhalla? What if our final destination is a spirit form? What if our energy at death is transferred to Gaia? When you assume that there are only two kinds of people in the world, you assume such with religious arrogance or ignorance.

TERRY: “SO BASED ON THE TWO BELIEF SYSTEMS YOU CAN CONCLUDE THAT PASCALS (sic) THEORY IS NOT SOMETHING IT TAKES A PHYSICIST TO COME UP WITH , BUT IT’S SO SIMPLE THAT A CHILD CAN UNDERSTAND (A CHILD OLD ENOUGH TO COMPREHEND) IT.”

You have emphasized one of the biggest problems with Pascal’s Wager. The fact that it incorrectly assumes in a two-belief system (hell or no hell) is a major problem that has not been successfully dealt with by any apologist. There is a smorgasbord of beliefs out there and many of them do not believe in a Heaven or Hell. One-third of all the world’s religions are atheistic in nature – meaning they do not believe in a deity, but have a religious system of rites and rituals. Many religions believe that everyone goes to Heaven – that Hell is not a literal place, but simply the idea of being away from the God or Goddess. There are religions that believe Hell is Earth and not a lake of fire and brimstone – and that this Hell is a journey we must all take in order to gain access to Heaven and God.

TERRY: “I THINK AND CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG, YOU WOULD PROBALLY (sic) SAY ONE OF TWO THINGS AND THATS (sic) “THAT THERE EITHER IS A GOD OR THERE IS NOT” AND THATS (sic) THE TWO GENERAL BELIEFS IN THIS WORLD, ONE CARRIES REWARDS AND THE OTHER PUNISHMENT LEADING ONE TO THE CONCLUSION IF THERE IS A GOD I MUST BELIEVE OR I DONT (sic) BELIEVE AND TAKE A CHANCE OF BEING WRONG AND FRIEND ETERNITY IS A LONG TIME TO BE WRONG.”

I’m correcting you, because you are wrong. You are correct that there are two types of people in the world: theists and Atheists, but to assert that all theists believe in an afterlife and a system of punishment/reward is incorrect and underlines they biggest problem with Pascal’s Wager. What God do we believe in? What system do we accept in order to gain access to that God? What steps must be taken to ensure access to the God is achieved? When Pascal asks, “What if you’re wrong,” then you should be asking yourself that question, too.

What if you are wrong? Have you studied all the world’s religions to ensure that you are following the correct one? Do you understand that you are a victim of geography and not theological truth?

TERRY: “…FIGURING OUT IF THERE IS A GOD IS THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE FOR A HUMAN, DUE TO THE FACT THAT IT IS THE ONLY BELIEF THAT CARRIES CONSEQUENCES, IF EVOLUTION IS TRUE THEN WHO CARES WHAT HAPPENS AFTER DEATH BECAUSE THERE IS NO CONSEQUENCES THERE, SO THERE IS NO NEED TO SAY IF YOU ARE RIGHT (ATHEISM) THEN THE WORST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN TO ME IS ILL DECAY IN THE GRAVE.SO WHAT?”

Again, you are missing a major portion of belief system out there that believes in an afterlife, but without the consequences. You also have to define afterlife, as many believe that resurrection is an afterlife, others believe that the legacy we leave behind and the memories people have of our time on Earth is the afterlife. The multitude of afterlife-related beliefs is so various that it can make your head swim just trying to sort them into some semblance of categories.

The bigger issue here is why people need the consequences in the first place. There are already man-made consequences to keep people in-line that would otherwise run around recklessly. We have a system of laws and a judicial system to enforce those laws and to help keep a fair balance in the system. We have a moral compass that we use that is not religious based. Almost every society known by anthropologists has developed a moral or legal system based on this moral compass, which is thought to be genetic in nature. In addition to our genetic morality, there is memetic morality, which develops based on our current society. This is where religious morality comes in to play – it doesn’t add anything significant to our genetic morality, but adds laws and rules that don’t make any sense most of them time.

The laws against purchasing liquor on Sunday make no sense whatsoever from a legal standpoint. Laws banning homosexual activity between consenting adults makes no sense whatsoever from a legal standpoint. Laws in Alabama that make the sale of vibrators and “marital aids” illegal make no legal sense whatsoever. The laws that generate from religious morality have nothing to do with morality and everything to do with forcing one religious belief on others – the “morality” in this case is 100% subjective.

Our non-religious laws tend to deal directly with the survival of the species and individual. As a species we react emotionally to the death of one of our own and we go into knee-jerk mode to create laws that will help prevent such a loss in the future. We create laws against driving under the influence, laws requiring children to wear helmets when riding bicycles, laws requiring the use of seatbelts in cars, laws banning the use of cell phones while driving, and many other laws stem from the idea that the survival of the species is important – something that is Darwinian – not religious.

TERRY: “WHAT ONE SHOULD SAY IS THERE ARE THINGS IN THE BIBLE THAT SCARE ME IF IT’S TRUE SUCH AS THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH, WHOSOEVERS (sic) NAME IS NOT WRITTEN IN THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE SHALL BE CAST IN THE LAKE OF FIRE, THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT CONCERN ME, NOT MUTATION AND NATURAL SELECTION AND THE BIG BANG BECAUSE THOSE THINGS HAVE NO ETERNAL THREAT TO ME.”

Yes, there are things in the Bible that, if taken literally, are scary. Revelation would make an awesome horror flick if done by a great director with actors that can actually act (no offense to the Left Behind movie (the acting was horrible)). What about all those other religious texts with equally scary things? Why do you believe in the Bible and not the others? Have you read the other sacred texts of the world? To assume the Bible is the only correct answer without reading all the others is a brave decision to make, especially when one is as concerned as you are about “what if you’re wrong.”

Evolution is an external threat to you. Every time that people misuse antibiotics they take the risk of causing the bacteria to evolve. We have so many antibiotics because this has already happened. The misuse of antibiotics in Russian prisons has caused a severe outbreak of tuberculosis that nothing can touch. Inmates receive a six month sentence and it becomes a life sentence because they catch tuberculosis there and die in the prison our just after getting out. Evolution can be a serious threat to humanity.

When the universe starts shrinking you’ll rethink that statement about the Big Bang not being an eternal threat. ;-)

TERRY: “…FOR EXAMPLE BEFORE I WOULD BELIEVE EVOLUTION WHICH HAS NO ETERNAL THREATS I WOULD HAVE TO HAVE EVIDENCE IN MY HAND, BECAUSE IT IS NOT GOOD TO TRUST IN MAN, MAN WILL LET YOU DOWN, I WOULD NEED TO HAVE BEEN THERE WHEN THE BIG BANG HAPPENED OR KNOW SOMEONE RELIABLE WHO WAS THERE, BEFORE I BASE MY ETERNITY ON IT. I KNOW THAT THERE WAS NO ONE THERE TO WITNESS IT SO UNTIL SOMEONE SHOWS UP, THERE IS NO WAY I’LL BELIEVE IT.”

Why don’t you hold yourself to the same standards when it comes to God? Man wrote the Bible, so since it is not good to trust man because he’ll let you down, then you should reject the Bible. Since there are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus, then, as you hold it to the Big Bang, you should also reject Jesus.

You’re a half-skeptic – you’re skeptical of those things you don’t want to believe in and non-skeptical of those things that you want to believe in. You’re not alone – most theists are that way.

TERRY: “SCIENTIST ONE DAY SAY VITAMIN C WILL REDUCE YOUR RISK FOR CANCER THEN A WEEK LATER IT CAUSES CANCER. THEY ARE SO WISHY WASHY IT’S HARDLY A RESPECTFUL OCCUPATION FOR ME AND I KNOW THEY DO SOME USEFUL STUDIES BUT THEY ARE NOT RELIABLE ENOUGH TO BANK YOUR ETERNITY ON.”

Yes, science makes mistakes. That is the beauty of science – it is self-correcting. A bad hypothesis and bad data cannot stand for long without being bashed by another scientific team. Of course the exact incident you are referring to boiled down to a lab technician that released the study early to the press before the final results were made. This caused the flip-flop that you are talking about with Vitamin C. Of course the media generalized so much that most of the general public still doesn’t really know what happened with the Vitamin C study.

Vitamin C is known to reduce the odds of developing cancer, however, a constant overdoes of Vitamin C (more than you could ever get if you ate a truckload of oranges every day) can have the reverse effect. People don’t listen to the details (assuming the media reports it) and they freak out for nothing.

I don’t bank my eternity on science, though. Even if there were no scientific data for evolutionary biology, I would still find no reason to believe in a god. There is simply no evidence to support the belief in a deity. As you said above, I have to have “evidence in my hand.”

TERRY: “NOW YOU ASKED IF I HAD PROOF AND THE ANSWER IS NO. I AM NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE PROOF BECAUSE GOD SAID IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH. THERE IS NO SIGN THERE HE TRIED TO PROVE HIMSELF SO NEITHER WILL I BECAUSE I CANNOT. THIS RELIGIOUS CONCEPT IS ALL BASED ON FAITH. IF I COULD SEE GOD AND PROVE HIM IT WOULD NOT BE FAITH.”

Do you not see your own contradiction here? You demand “evidence in hand” for the Big Bang and evolution (it does exist, by the way) and yet you disregard that philosophy when it comes to your Bible-God. Why do you not hold your religious beliefs to the same strict standards?

TERRY: “THIS MEANS I CANNOT PROVE GOD, IT WOULD GO AGAINST ONE OF THE MAJOR DOCTRINES OF MY RELIGION WHICH IS FAITH.”

I’m impressed that you are willing to admit this. Most theists contort themselves in every direction in order to “prove” their version of god to me. They twist and turn and perform some of the greatest mental gymnastics possible in order to offer “evidence.” It is this lack of proof or evidence for god that leads me to the conclusion that there is no reason to believe in any god or gods. Faith is irrelevant in my view. It offers nothing tangible, which of course is the nature of faith. I’m not a block of stone – I am malleable. All it takes is for evidence to present itself and I will change my views on the existence of god. I’ve been looking for that evidence all my life and I haven’t found it, seen it, heard of it, tasted it, or felt it. I have done none of these things because, as you state – the evidence is non-existent.

TERRY: “OK IT’S YOUR TURN, PLEASE IF YOU CAN, WOULD YOU PRESENT ME WITH SOME EVIDENCE THAT EVOLUTION IS TRUE BECAUSE IN MY RESEARCH I’VE NOT SEEN ANYTHING THAT IS WRIITTEN (sic) IN STONE TO PROVE TO ME ANY OF IT IS TRUE. I’M NOT TALKING MILLIONS OF THINGS, JUST A COUPLE THAT ARE CONCRETE.”

If your “research” has shown you nothing, then you haven’t done much research. The evidence for biological evolution is overwhelming. Creationists have not been able to disprove evolution. All they do is try to poke holes in it and highlight the changes in the theory that have taken place. They highlight these changes as bad things, but they couldn’t be farther from the truth. The very nature of science is to constantly question, evaluate, and look for new facts, which will be supporting evidence or contradictory evidence. When evidence does not fit the theory, then the theory has to be scrapped. Evolution is still holding after all these years of gathering data. There is no contradictory evidence that has toppled the theory.

Here are some resources that I suggest that lay down the evidence in layman terms for the non-scientific.

TERRY: “THE ONLY THING I BELIEVE IS THAT MICROEVOLUTION IS TRUE BECAUSE I CAN SEE IT, LIKE GRAVITY I BELIEVE IN IT BECAUSE IT IS FAIL PROOF IT IS SOUND, AND MAN WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE IN GOD WILL BE LIKE NOT BELIEVING IN GRAVITY, IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN GRAVITY AND JUMP FROM A BUILDING YOU WILL STILL BE SUBJECT TO IT AND SO WILL HE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE IN GOD WILL STILL BE SUBJECT TO HIM.”

If you accept that microevolution occurs, then you accept the Theory of Evolution. Creationists have this disturbed image of macroevolution being this massive jump from a dog to a bull. Macroevolution is not a massive jump, but an accumulation of microevolution changes over an extended period.

If you accept that microevolution happens because you can see it, then you already have the evidence that biological evolution is correct. It is the accumulation of microevolution changes that ultimately lead to a macroevolution change in a species or to another species. You’re an evolutionist, after all.

TERRY: “FOR INSTANCE YOU MAY RESPOND BACK TO ME AND SAY MAN WROTE THE BIBLE WHICH I DO NOT BELIEVE, BUT MY POINT IS THAT MY BELIEF HAS REWARDS NOT CONSEQUENCES SO IT DOES NOT MATTER IF I AM WRONG IT ONLY MATTERS IF YOU’RE WRONG.”

But it does matter if you are wrong. Let’s play along for a minute and say there is a god out there that actually cares about humanity and has a place for humans to go when they die – a good place and a bad place. How do you know what god to worship? What if you are worshiping the wrong god and making it upset that you are worshiping a false idol or false messiah? Then you will go to the bad place and face the consequences of your actions in worshiping false gods and messiahs. What if the Hindu is right? What if the Buddhists are right? What if the Pagans are right and the Goddess is very upset at Christians making her a man and not worshiping her?

You have placed all your eggs in one religious basket. You have gambled your eternal soul’s vitality on the ramblings of a single religious text instead of reading all of them and making sure that you’re not wrong. For someone that claims to take such a huge stake on the “what if you are wrong” scenario, you haven’t done much to protect yourself against it. What if you’re wrong?

TERRY: “I AM SURE THERE IS A MODEL OF NOAHS (sic) ARK SOMEWHERE BUT ARE YOU GONNA BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE BECAUSE YOU SEEN A MODEL OF THE ARK? NO I WOULD WANT TO SEE THE REAL THING BEFORE I RISK ETERNITY.”

You are right – I want to see the real thing before I accept the Noachian flood as non-fiction. The fact remains that the evidence is against a Noachian flood. Scores of expeditions and studies have been made of Mt. Ararat and still no Ark has been found. They will never find the Ark because it does not exist and never existed. It’s a fairy tale – a piece of fiction.

You know the story of the Noachian flood is not real. If this is not real – then how can we decipher in the Bible what is fiction and what is non-fiction? What if we are basing our religion on the fiction, while the non-fiction is something we ignore? What if we are practicing the wrong rites and rituals? What if everything we believe is based entirely on fiction? If even a single part of the Bible is shown to be false, then the entire Bible is not trustworthy.

TERRY: “WOULD YOU PLEASE GIVE ME A GOOD DEFINITION OF SCIENCE. MY DEFINITION IS THAT SCIENCE MUST BE OBSERVED, MEASURED AND TESTED, I WILL DISCUSS THIS MORE AFTER I SEE YOUR DEFINITION AND REBUTTAL.”

Science is the means of observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena. Science is restricted to a class of natural phenomena. Science is the means by which we gain knowledge through the experiences we have through observation, identification, etc.

Of course science cannot be left defined by a simple dictionary definition. The definition of science must include the methods and attitudes, if you will, to which the body of knowledge if formed. This would entail the Scientific Method, the many branches of specialization, even the evolution of scientific thought, and the great role that measurement and experiment have on the overall purpose and direction of science and specifically its flexibility, durability, and its ability to self-correct.

TERRY: “1. WHO WAS THE FIRST PERSON THAT DISCOVERED THE EARTH WAS ROUND AND NOT FLAT. 1475 COPRENICUS (sic) DISCOVERED THAT, BUT 2000 YEARS EARLIER THE BIBLE DECLARED IT. IS 40:22,JOB 26:7”

Surely you are joking? Let’s look at Isaiah 40:22 a little more closely, shall we?

Isaiah 40:22 states, “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the Earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.” [KJV]

A circle is not a sphere. A circle is flat – a sphere is round, like a ball. A curtain is a flat item that covers a specific area. A tent is pitched on a flat area – not around a sphere. The heavens can only be a tent if the Earth is flat. Otherwise, it’s not like a tent if it is stretched over a sphere. The Isaiah passage confirms that the men that wrote the books of the OT thought the Earth was flat. So what about Job 26:7?

Job 26:7 states, “He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the Earth upon nothing.” [KJV]

Again, we see no references to a spherical Earth. Bible study guides say that “stretcheth over the north” means stretching the heavens over the Earth. Why would he stretch the Heavens “over the Earth” if the Earth was an orb or sphere trapped by inertia and the Law of Universal Gravitation? The Earth doesn’t hang, either. Hanging is something you do to a flat item or something that is not in an orbit or planetary plane. The Earth doesn’t just hang there – it rotates on an axis and revolves around the Sun on a steady orbit. How can you even begin to call things like this science?

These are the ramblings of ancient men who did not understand things – who had no science. Now we find modern men, with the ability to use science, resorting to wishful thinking and pulling straws in order to justify their non-scientific belief in creationism. They peruse the Bible looking for any silly thing that will help them justify their beliefs. They justify their beliefs unto themselves, for their feeble efforts do nothing to convince the rest of the world.

It’s interesting to see the different translations of this passage. I check as many translations as I can to see where the variations are. This allows for a better understanding of the passage and a better way to analyze it.

For example:The NIV states, “He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing.

  • The MSG says, “He spreads the skies over unformed space, hands the earth out in empty space.
  • The NLV says, “He spreads out the north over empty waste, and hangs the earth on nothing.
  • The ESV says, “He stretches out the north over the void and hangs the earth of nothing.
  • The CEV says, “Who hung the northern sky and suspended the earth on empty space?
  • The YLT says, “Stretching out the north over desolation, hanging the earth upon nothing.

That’s a lot of variety and they mean different things. How do you know which translation is correct? One thing is for sure, based on the Scholar’s Version, the KJV is not to be trusted. James’ translators did not translate from the “original,” they took shortcuts and used existing translations.

Perhaps you would be better to explain the non-scientific aspect of the flat-Earth belief in the Bible? Or perhaps that the Earth is immovable – that it sits still without orbit or axis rotation (such as the suspends in the Job 26:7 verse that you provided). The Earth is immovable as clearly stated in verses like 1 Chronicles 16:30, Isaiah 45:18, Psalm 96:10, etc.

The very statement of “stretching out the heavens” is indicative of an immovable Earth – as the Heavens are stretched over it (instead of the Earth sitting in the vast universe). For example, Job 9:8 and Isaiah 45:12.

The very flatness of the Earth is dictated by the Bible in Daniel 4:10-11, “(10) Thus were the vision of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great. (11) The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth.” [KJV]

You cannot see the ends of the earth from a tall tree unless the earth is flat. A spherical earth will not allow this to happen. We see another example of this in the NT when Satan tempts Jesus in Matthew 4:8, “Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them.” [KJV] Again, you can only see all the kingdoms of the world from the highest mountain if the Earth is flat – not spherical.

Job 38:12-13 talks about shaking the earth from its edges. A spherical earth has no edges. Job 38:14 states that the earth took shape like clay under a seal. When you stamp clay, it creates a flat mold – not a sphere. Clearly the writers of the OT and NT thought the earth was flat – not spherical.

And what of the four corners? Isaiah 11:12 and Revelation 7:1 are good examples of the “four corners of the earth.” A sphere does not have corners. And what of the ends of the earth? Job 38:13, Jeremiah 16:19, and Daniel 4:11 are good examples of the “ends of all the earth.” A sphere does not have ends and certainly not an “ends of all the earth,” which is indicative of a flat circle or disc, which is emphasized in Enoch.

TERRY: “2. IN 1615, WILLIAM HARVEY MADE A BRILLANT (sic) DISCOVERY THAT THE LIFE OF THE FLESH IS IN THE BLOOD AND I CAN CONFIRM THAT BECAUSE I AM ALSO A PARAMEDIC AND IF YOUR BLOOD IS NOT PUMPING ,YOUR BODY IS NOT LIVING. THE BIBLE HAD DECLARED THAT ALSO 3000 YEARS EARLIER IN LEV 17:11.”

Leviticus 17:11 states, “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.” [KJV]

We’ll ignore the fact that the Bible is demanding blood sacrifices upon the altar for a second and look at the “science” of this verse. First off, it was not hard for ancient societies to know that if you lose your blood – you die. Many ancient societies understood this, especially those, like the OT clans, that participated in blood sacrifices.

What is missing is any science. Why is the blood the life of the flesh? What is it in the blood that does that? It was William Harvey that published how the heart pumped blood through the body and returned in his 1628 book An Anatomical Study of the Motion of the Heart and of the Blood in Animals. Harvey didn’t say something non-scientific and simple as, “blood is the life of the flesh.” Harvey used actual science to discover the path that blood took in the veins and arteries. Harvey discovered the process by which blood is oxygenated in the lungs and brought back to the heart for circulation. Harvey dispelled the idea at the time that food was digested in the liver. Harvey was a true scientist that made actual scientific discoveries. If you can find anything scientific like that in the Bible, then we can talk.

TERRY: “3. IN THE 1840’s, LORD ROSSE WITH HIS NEWEST INVENTED SUPER TELESCOPE DISCOVERED THE GREAT EMPTY SPACE OVER THE NORTH BUT JOB DECLARED THAT WAY BEFORE LORD ROSSE DID. JOB 26:7”

As discussed earlier, Job made no scientific discovery at all, especially in light of the different translations. There is no such thing as a “great empty space over the north.” The only way such a statement makes sense is if you believe in a flat earth. We also know that it is not a “great empty space.” There are asteroids, comets, planets, satellites, galaxies, and others. The heavens are far from empty and they certainly are not just above the north.

Rosse actually discovered that it was not a great empty space. His telescope, which was located in Birr, Ireland (then it was known as Parsonstown) was also limited to viewing close to the meridian, so he didn’t discover much “to the north,” anyway. Rosse drew pictures of the Crab Nebula (M1), a spiral nebula (M33, M99, and M101), the Question Mark (M51), and the Owl Nebula (M97).

TERRY: “YOU SEE NONE OF THOSE MEN WERE THE ORIGINALS AND THE BIBLE WAS TRUTHFUL IN THOSE THREE THINGS BEFORE MAN WITH HIS EGOTISTICAL SELF STEPPED IN. YOU SEE, I THINK WE WOULD PROBALLY (sic) DISCOVER MORE SCIENCE IF WE WOULD GO TO THE BIBLE FIRST TO FIND THE IDEAS.”

That’s a pretty bold statement considering that you have offered no science, yet. All you have offered is mythology and fiction.

TERRY: “IT IS NOT WHETHER WE CAN PROVE THE BIBLE TRUE, IT’S CAN YOU PROVE IT WRONG. IF THE ABOVE OR BELOW EXAMPLES ARE TRUE THEN THE PART ABOUT JESUS AND HELL MAY ALSO BE TRUE.”

You’re certainly not off to a good start. So far the only thing you’ve proven is that the Bible is unscientific and full of fiction and mythology and the babbling of men trying to make sense of a world they didn’t understand. Men insisted the Earth was firm and did not have an orbit or an axis. Men who insisted the Earth is a flat and circular plane contained in a dome. The top of the dome was a firmament – the heavens were firm and were setup like a tent over the flat circular plane that the earth was located on. The stars were small objects, as several biblical references talk about the stars falling on the earth (they weren’t talking about shooting stars – but actual stars). The stars were thought to be pinpricks in the firmament of heaven.

TERRY: “RESEARCH IF YOU LIKE, BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE JESUS AND THE PARTS ABOUT HELL ARE TRUE AND IT WILL SAVE YOU ALOT (sic) OF TIME. I AM JUST AS CONVICTED THAT I AM RIGHT AS YOU ARE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT SO DO NOT HOLD THIS AGAINST ME OR MISUNDERSTAND THAT I AM BEING SARCASTIC BECAUSE I AM NOT, IT’S JUST THAT JESUS IS MY STORY AND I AM STICKING TO IT.”

You can tell me they are true all you want to, but that doesn’t change the fact that you have no evidence to support your claim. When you are ready to present evidence of their validity, then we can talk. Until then, you are just talking about your faith-based beliefs and are presenting no facts whatsoever.

TERRY: “4. WHAT ABOUT THE UNDER SEA CURRENTS THE BIBLE TALKED ABOUT WAY BEFORE MATTHEW MAURY DISCOVERED IT AS A MATTER OF FACT HE READ IT IN THE BIBLE AND THEN WENT TO DISCOVER IT, THIS IS WHAT I CALL A SMART SCIENTIST. PSALM 8:8”

Psalm 8:8 states, “The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.” [KJV] I take it then that you are suggesting the “paths of the seas” is a reference to currents? Of course we know that ancient civilizations understood that there were currents in the sea. They didn’t know what they were or how they worked, only that a boat will follow a “path” if left on its own accord. They knew that things left the shore and arrived from other places on their shores. However, the fact that it talks about the “paths of the seas” is indicative of the non-scientific nature of the Bible. It is clear that men wrote this that had no scientific knowledge of the oceans.

Let me ask you this. Is your Bible-God so uneducated and moronic that he cannot describe these features? Is he so dimwitted that he must refer to scientific things so elementary and childish, as if he is an uneducated man guessing at the nature of the world and its many environments? Surely an all-knowing god that created the thing he is describing could do better than that?

If the Bible were truly scientific as you claim, you wouldn’t have to be scraping the bottom of the barrel for small morsels to prove your point. You would be able to quote verses that are full to the brim with scientific data. Surely the creator of the world knows how the world works? Why is there nothing specific and scientific? Why are there only things that creationists have to stretch in order to try and prove their point (and fail miserably in the process)?

TERRY: “5. THE ATMOSPHERE HAS WEIGHT JOB 28:25, THEN THIS WAS DISCOVERED IN THE 1600’s BY GALILEO?”

Okay, this one is pretty funny. Job 28:25 states, “To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure.” [KJV]

First off, there is no reference to the atmosphere in this and any statement to the effect that it does is stretching the imagination a lot. What you have to ask is why did the men that wrote Job think the wind had weight? They thought it had weight because it fell from the sky (blew). Something had to make the wind “fall,” so they thought it had weight. Of course real science (meaning not from the Bible) tells us that wind is caused by changes in barometric pressure as the wind if moved from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure.

The wind doesn’t blow because it has weight; it blows because it is conforming to the physical laws, which an area of greater pressure will attempt to stabilize itself by moving into an area of lower pressure. This causes the air to move at variable speeds into the low-pressure area, causing what we feel as wind.

What I just said is science. What the Bible says is mythology and scientific illiteracy. As I said before, one would think that an all-knowing god and the creator of this world would at least know how it works and that weight does not cause wind nor does wind move because of weight.

TERRY: “6. I KNOW YOU WILL RUBUKE (sic) THIS BUT THE UNIVERSE IS RUNNING DOWN BY THE 2nd LAW OF THERMO DYNAMICS PS 102:25-26. NOW I KNOW ATHEIST DO NOT AGREE WITH CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST ON THIS, BUT I HAVE NOT SEEN ONE PROVE IT WRONG YET.”

I can’t figure out how on earth you stretched Psalms 102:25-26 to mean that the universe is running down because of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Psalms 102:25-26 states, “(25) Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. (26) They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed.” [KJV]

First off, this is another example of the firmness of earth that we were talking about earlier; how the writers of the OT books thought the earth was motionless (no orbit or rotation on the axis). The “foundation of earth” is a phrase used often in the Bible; it means the earth is solid and steady; it is immovable. God is said to have laid the foundation of the earth and pitch up the tent of the heavens above it. A sphere has no foundation, but a flat and disc-like earth does have a foundation, or as they are often referred to in the Bible, pillars.

The verse is also referring to individuals, not a planet. The use of the word “they” in the verses indicates that the writer is not talking about the planet, but about people. The followers will endure, while the non-believers shall perish.

TERRY: “7. TRILLIONS OF STARS IN OUTER SPACE, SEE GEN 22:17 AND JER 32:22.”

Genesis 22:17 states, “That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies.” [KJV]

Jeremiah 32:22 states, “And hast given them this land, which thou didst swear to their fathers to give them, a land flowing with milk and honey.” [KJV]

I’m not sure why you threw Jeremiah in there, as I see nothing to the effect of trillions of stars in the universe. Genesis 22:17 says nothing about trillions of stars in outer space. Genesis, if anything, would lead one to believe that the men who wrote the Bible thought that there were only thousands of stars, which would make sense since they didn’t know that there were trillions of stars in each galaxy and billions of galaxies. The writer is saying that the individual being spoken to will multiply their seed (sperm resulting in children) that will number as the stars in the heavens and the sands of the sea shore. Of course we know this is impossible, a man cannot have that many children even if he got a woman pregnant every second of his life.

This verse, if you use it as “proof” of biblical science, should show you how ridiculous your stretching of this argument is. Of course I know you are not coming up with these arguments. You’re taking them from a creationist web site. Which creationist web page are you getting these far-fetched scriptures from to support biblical “science?”

TERRY: “8. THE UNIVERSE IS EXPANDING PS 104:2 ISA 42:5 IS THIS TRUE THAT OUR WHOLE SOLAR SYSTEM IS BEING HURLED INTO OUTER SPACE AT 600,000 MILES PER HOUR, THE BIBLE DECLARED IT.”

Psalms 104:2 states, “Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain.” [KJV]

Isaiah 42:5 states, “Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; the that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit them that walk therein.” [KJV]

Notice that stretched is used in the past tense? That means that this verse does not support an expanding universe at all. If it did support an expanding universe it would say stretching – not stretched.

Regardless, again we see the reference to a curtain. The curtain is a single piece of cloth that is stretched over something, such as tent or dome-shaped firmament. Funny that you should use Isaiah 42:5, which supports the flat-earth claim of the Bible. An earth that is spread out is flat – an earth that is molded in a ball, now that’s a different story. If you spread butter do you get a sphere? No, you get a flat surface. Thank you for giving us another example of how the Bible claims the earth is flat.

TERRY: “9. WHERE DID THE DAY NIGHT CALENDER (sic) COME FROM? I’LL GO ON THE LIMB HERE AND SUGGEST THAT MAN TOOK THIS IDEA FROM GEN 1 IT HAD BEEN DECLARED.”

The Egyptians had a calendar made up of twelve months and each month had thirty days. The Egyptians added five days in the twelfth month, which causes a ¼ day, per year, shift – meaning that the first month moved until 1,460 year later when it again arrived where it started. The calendar was simple, but it wasn’t very accurate.

The Jews had a calendar that was all screwed up (these are the people that relied on the Tanakh and Torah – precursor to the Christian Bible). The months alternated between 29 and 30 days and they had to add a month about every third year to account for miscalculations. Of course in the long run, they sometimes had to add two months to account for the miscalculations. Obviously, the people that studied what you call the OT didn’t see any foundation for a calendar.

The most sophisticated calendars come from two opposite ends of the globe. The Aztecs developed a calendar that was able to predict the full and new moon, eclipses, and the solstices and equinoxes accurately. On the other side, the Mesopotamians achieved the same thing. The Mesopotamians were using their sophisticated calendar and mathematics to come up with it around 500 BCE.

The idea of separating the months into days was only logical, since the division was obvious celestially by the sun and moon, and the movement of the planets. The Egyptians, Greeks, Mesopotamians, and others all divided their months into sub-divisions (some ten and some seven), which we now call weeks, and their sub-divisions into hours or sub-periods.

The current calendar uses Pagan names. The names of the days originate from the day that a particular celestial object rules the first hours. The names originate from Sun’s day, Moon’s day, Mars’ day, Mercury’s day, Jupiter’s day, Venus’ day, and Saturn’s day. Later Saxon influence changed these names to more recognizable days: Sun’s day, Moon’s day, Tiw’s day, Wotan’s day, Thor’s day, Frigg’s day, and Saturn’s day.

The calendar we use today is the Gregorian calendar, which was designed for ecclesiastical purposes to regulate the ceremonial cycle of the Roman Catholic Church. Of course Gregory was wrong, because we have to add leap years to account for his error. If the Bible were clear on how to fabricate an accurate calendar, you’d think it would have been done long before science came around and resolved the issue.

TERRY: “10. IT SHOWS US THERE ARE WATER FOUNTAINS UNDER THE OCEANS , SEE JOB 38:16,PRO 8:28.”

Job 38:16 states, “Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? Or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?” Proverbs 8:28 states, “When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep.” [KJV]

According to the CCE the phrase is more likely “fountains beneath the sea,” not springs. It also elaborates, “Rather, “the inmost recesses;” literally, “that which is only found by searching,” the deep caverns of the ocean. The John Wesley Explanatory Notes (WES) goes further and says, “Springs – Hebrew for “the tears;” the several springs out of which the waters of the sea flow as tears do from the eyes.”

We’ve heard of these underwater springs from which all water flows before in Genesis 7:11, “…on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.” The “fountains of the deep” or “springs” are references to the Noachian flood. Of course we know from the water cycle that the oceans are not generated from fountains in the deep. The thermal springs discovered with deep submersibles are not water sources, but heated ocean water that has seeped below the sedimentary layer, heated by magma-warmed rocks and then rises as it is heated through thermal vents. These aren’t springs, but regurgitating vents. They are not sources of water, but a place where water is spat back out into the ocean.

The reference to springs is not a reference to thermal vents nor is it to underwater springs where fresh groundwater seeps into the ocean. The reference is to the so-called springs that burst forth with water to cause the Noachian flood along with the opening of heaven to cascade water upon the earth and flood it – killing all inhabitants save a single family led by a drunkard.

The reference made in Proverbs is a reference back to the Noachian flood as well. The strengthening of the “fountains of the deep” was necessary to prevent another Noachian flood, as the Bible-God promised and created the rainbow to sanctify his promise never to destroy all of humanity again.

Speaking of the rainbow, I have a question for your creationist “scientists.” What were the properties of light before the Noachian Flood? How come light did not react to a prism the same way before the Noachian flood as it did afterwards? Was light not composed of different wavelengths of light before the Noachian flood? Were raindrops different so that they did not cause light to breakdown it’s wavelengths and create a rainbow (prism) in the sky? I’ve never met a creationist that can explain that one.

TERRY: “11. IT SHOWS US THE HYDROLOGIC CYCLE OF WATER ECCL 1:7, GALILEO DISCOVERED EVAPORATION AND CONDENSATION OF WATER IN 1630.”

Ecclesiastes 1:7 states, “All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.” [KJV]

Okay, this is a good guess, but it’s not science. Again, if your all-knowing creator made the world, you’d think that he could explain the water cycle a little better. Yet the sea is not full is clearly indicative of the writer’s ignorance. The seas are full. Evaporation doesn’t keep the seas from being full – it keeps them from being overfull. The writer is also suggesting that the waters return to the river and makes no mention of evaporation, condensation or precipitation.

All the biblical study guides say that this is a reference to “veins of water” that flow from the sea back to the river beginnings. The writer of Ecclesiastes thought that the water somehow went from the ocean via veins back to the river’s beginning, where it was cycled again. They had no concept of evaporation, condensation, or the water cycle via precipitation and run-off. As one study guide puts it, the rivers and ocean are maintained through subterraneous cavities.

I’ll grant you that the statement is scientific in nature – in that it attempts to explain the environment based on the knowledge of the time. However, what you are trying to assert is that the Bible is 100% scientifically accurate and will guide us in finding scientific progress. You have not shown that to be the case at all. You have given us last straws, stretches of the imagination, and pure fiction and mythology.

Where is the science and knowledge of the creation that one would expect from a creator? Where are the descriptive verses explaining volcanology, plate tectonics, meteorology, oceanography, biology, and other scientific endeavors?

TERRY: “12. IT SHOWS US LIGHT CAN BE PARTED JOB 38:24. WHITE LIGHT WHILE PASSING THRU THE PRISM CAN BE SEPERATED (sic) INTO SEVEN COLORS. THIS WAS NOT DISCOVERED UNTO 1600’s.”

Job 38:24 states, “By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?” [KJV]

How is this any semblance of science or the properties of a prism? The verse is asking how it happens – not explaining how it happens. Societies have long known how light parts (scatters or separates), but what they did not know was how. This is where religion failed and science figured it out – that light is composed of different wavelengths and that a prism can separate them.

However, biblical scholars agree that this verse is not a reference to a prism, but a reference to the diffusion of light – that the light diffuses over the whole earth, seeming to come from one point (which we know is the Sun). This is why there is a reference to the wind there. It’s not a light parting into a prism, but a light parting over the earth as the wind does. Another biblical study guide uses the word “distributed upon the face of the earth.” Another guide says that the reference is to the phenomenon of the wind rising, as does the sun, so that the sun rises and scatters the light upon the earth, causing the wind to come from the east.

Amazing, I was just asking about the properties of the prism and light and how they were different before and after the Noachian flood.

TERRY: “13. IT SHOWS US HOW THE SUN IS THE SOURCE OF THE EARTH’S WIND SYSTEM JOB 38:24. MIND YOU ALSO THAT JOB IS ONE OF THE OLDEST BOOKS IN THE BIBLE.”

You can’t have this one both ways. You just said that the same verse proves a prism. Now, are you going to go with the scattering of light as a prism, or as a source of wind? As I already mentioned above, some study guides suggest a reference to the rising of the sun coinciding with the rise of wind. Religion failed to answer how or why this occurs (notice, as usual, that there is no elaboration and nothing scientific to the verse) and science succeeds in answering the question. The increase in temperature causes heated air to rise, creating a high-pressure area above, and a low-pressure area below, this causes surrounding air to move into the area of low pressure, causing wind. The Bible did not explain this – only reported the coincidence that the rising sun gives rise to rising winds. It is scientific in nature only in the sense that it is reporting an observation, but there is no explanation, which one would expect from a scientific source.

TERRY: “14. IT SHOWS US THE WINDS DO BLOW IN CIRCUIT ECC 1:6”

Ecclesiastes 1:6 states, “The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.” [KJV]

The north and south winds are two prevailing winds in the area of Palestine. It is scientifically inaccurate to say that the south wind turns around and blows north. It is also inaccurate to say that the wind whirls about continually and returns to its circuit (meaning it returns afresh to its point of origin). Where is the science in this statement?

Where is the mention of upper-level winds, jet streams, meteorological patterns that differ in the northern hemisphere from the southern hemisphere? Where is the mention of pressure gradients that cause the wind?

TERRY: “15. IT SHOWS US THE PRACTICE OF CIRCUMCISION ON THE EIGHT DAY. GOD KNEW THAT BLEEDING WOULD BE MINIMIZED IF CIRCUMCISION WAS DONE ON THE EIGHT DAY. PROTHROMBIN IS MADE IN LIVER AND BECOMES WELL DEPLETED AND DOES NOT REPLENISH UNTIL THE EIGHT DAY.”

The eighth day has nothing to do with chemical makeup or hormonal release and everything to do with Hebrew numerology. Many things are done on the eighth day and to say that circumcision is directly related to some scientific reason, is complete nonsense. The eighth day is used for the sacrifice of unblemished lamb and an offering of fine flour and an oil log. The eighth day is used to cleanse offerings by the priests, which may include two turtledoves or two young pigeons.

The seven days prior are referred to as being “under the dam,” and the eighth day is when it is acceptable to make an offering. The foreskin is an offering and it falls under the same guidelines. You must wait seven days “under the dam” before you can make an offering on the eighth day.

Just do a search for “eighth day” using an online or CD-based Bible and you’ll be amazed how many references you find. I was able to find 23 references to the eighth day.

It’s not hard to notice that bleeding occurs less on the eighth day after birth. Anyone with a brain can figure out that if you do circumcision on every day and that less deaths occur on the eighth day, then that should be the day you do circumcision.

The use of the eighth day is ceremonial in nature, as indicated by its use in 23 biblical references. To disregard those other uses (unless you’re suggesting that clotting ability is important in animals as well) and pick out only the one that happens to coincide with a scientific discovery, is ludicrous, at best. Nowhere in the Bible is any mention of the phenomenon of less clotting on that day. Nowhere is any reason given for the use of the eighth day except for its ceremonial reasons, which are religious, based in numerology.

TERRY: “NOW THE BIBLE SAYS THAT ALL THINGS WILL YIELD BY SEED AFTER IT’S OWN KIND. DO YOU HAVE PROOF THAT ANYTHING EVER TURNED INTO SOMETHING ELSE, FOR INSTANCE HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A MAN TURN INTO AND APE OR VICE VERSA, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A PLANT TURN INTO A CAT? I DO NOT THINK ANYBODY HAS EVER SEEN THIS PHENOMENON.”

This is why it is so hard for scientists (real ones) to take creationists seriously. If I had ever seen a man turn into an ape then that would be proof of creation – not evolution. This is a basic misunderstanding of evolutionary theory – that one thing turns into another overnight. It is a series of microevolution changes that culminate into a new species. If we find a plant-cat, then that would be a piece of evidence for the creationists – not the scientists.

Actually, there have been many instances of observed speciation. We see it occur all the time in the microbiology field, especially with bacteria and viruses. Evolutionary science predicted that lower life forms would evolve at a faster rate than higher life forms. This prediction panned out when the microbiology field developed and we started battling bacteria and viruses. It is the mutation and evolution of bacteria and viruses that force the pharmacology field to constantly produce new antibiotics to battle the new mutations of bacteria and new species from constant variations. If evolution weren’t a fact, then we would still be using penicillin instead of all these new powerful antibiotics.

There are two lists of observed speciation online. The lists are not comprehensive (by no means), but it gives you an idea of how often speciation has been observed just in our lifetime alone. You can find these lists at Speciation Observed and Speciation Observed 2.

TERRY: “WILLIE BEE, WAS A WELL KNOWN APE IN THE ATLANTA AREA HERE WHERE I LIVE, BUT HE HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN APE. THEY SAY THAT ALL THESE MACROEVOLUTIONARY THINGS HAPPENED BUT HOW COME THEY ARE NOT FINDING MORE OF THESE CREATURES THAT ARE HALF AND HALF.”

As I said before, a half-and-half would not be expected under the Theory of Evolution. Macroevolution is not an overnight jump from one species to a new one – it an accumulation of microevolution changes. If you find a cat-dog walking around, then you’ll have proof of creation – not evolution.

There are, however, many transitional species on the earth right now – species that have accumulated many microevolution changes. This will highlight another of the creationist’s misunderstandings of evolution. Many creationists think that when a new species evolves that the old species dies out. This is why we often hear, “If apes evolved into man, then how come apes still exist?” If the old species died out when microevolution accumulated into a macroevolution event, then there would only be one species alive on the planet at any given time. Obviously, that is not the case – but it certainly highlights the ignorance that creationists often have when it comes to the science of evolutionary biology.

To get back to my example, as a species begins to evolve, you can see the intermediaries taking up their niche in the different environments. There is a red fish (the name escapes me right now) that is held in an aquarium at the Environmental Studies Center in Mobile, Alabama. The fish does not swim, even though it has a dorsal fin. The fish walks on its front fins along the rocks. The skeletal structure of the fish’s front fins more closely resembles the bone structure of an amphibian than a true fish, but the rest of the fish resembles the fish structure. This is an intermediary species that found a niche and there was no longer a need to adapt to its environment anymore.

However, continued variations in the genetic code would have caused offshoots of that species. While we can never be sure of its exact evolutionary path (as you pointed out, we weren’t there), we can get a general idea based on genetic variations when we compare that fish to others. The closer a species is to humans, the less genetic variation is expected. The closer a species is to the original species, the more genetic variation is expected.

The Theory of Evolution predicted this, and it panned out when the genetic testing was done. Species that we thought were older turned out to have more genetic variation, and species we thought were newer had less genetic variation. We also found that every species on the planet shares a specific strand of genetic code, which was also predicted – because if we evolved from the same species, we would all have remnants of the original genetic code. In other words, the farther away you get from the original species, the more genetic variation there is.

This is not what one would expect with special creation, unless you’re a “mechanical theist,” whom believes that a creator made the original species and then let evolution go from there. This “mechanic theist” belief is a hands-off approach to the deity – he/she/it created the original life form and then let evolution guide the rest of the process.

TERRY: “RIGHT NOW AND MAYBE YOU CAN AT LEAST GIVE ME A BETTER ILLUSTRATION, BUT RIGHT NOW THIS IS HOW I SEE EVOLUTION: I SEE A EXPLOSION HAPPENING AT THE FORD PLANT WITHOUT THE NECCESSARY (sic) FIRE TETRAHEDRON AND PIECES OF METAL FLYING ACROSS THE SKY AND LANDING IN MY DRIVEWAY ASSEMBLING THEMSELVES INTO A BRAND NEW 3001 (I MEAN 3000 FOR METAPHORIC ADVANCEMENT, WHICH THE HUMAN BODY REFLECTS AN ADVANCED MACHINE) MUSTANG CONVERTIBLE. HARDLY!”

This is a typical strawman argument of creationists. If a Ford plant exploded and a Ford Mustang GTO formed in your driveway from the falling debris, I would claim it a miracle performed by a deity, as it would be proof of creation – not evolution. The attempt to compare obviously intelligently designed items (cars, watches, mouse traps, etc) with biological evolution is totally ludicrous.

Evolution is not the miraculous appearance of a new species overnight, as I have asserted over and over again. Evolution is the gradual change of a species (microevolution) until such changes accumulate that speciation has occurred (macroevolution). This really isn’t a hard concept – I don’t understand why creationists have such a hard time grasping it. I know why they reject it, but I don’t understand why they don’t understand it.

TERRY: “NOW AT THIS POINT YOU ARE PROBALLY (sic) THINKING NOW I KNOW THIS GUY IS IGNORANT OF EVOLUTION, BUT I WANT TO ASSURE YOU THAT I HAVE READ COUNTLESS HOURS ON EVOLUTION AND THEY DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING OUT MORE THAN DR BOTTLESTOPPER SAYS IN THE SCIENCE FIELD TODAY THAT “HE THINKS THAT WHAT MAY HAVE HAPPEN BILLIONS OF YEARS AGO IS THAT THERE WAS A BIG BANG.”

No offense, but I thought you were ignorant on the Theory of Evolution long before you gave that example. You have spouted off every ludicrous creationist argument there is. All creationists can do is try to poke holes in evolution because they have no proof that their “version” is a reality. All they can do is mock science, and in a way worship it, by trying to justify their beliefs through bogus science.

Theories are not about “we think,” that is reserved for a hypothesis. When science is in the “we think” mode, it is speculating on a hypothesis. Once the hypothesis is formulated, it is tested and approached from every angle in attempt to disprove the hypothesis. Predictions are made, tests are completed, and data is compiled. If the hypothesis is shattered, then it is tossed and a new one is formulated. If the hypothesis pans out, then additional testing is done and data is accumulated and other teams take a crack at it. When the hypothesis is proven and cannot be disproved, then it becomes a theory.

Even then, scientists constantly attack the theory, because any scientists that can disprove a theory are guaranteed recipients of a Pulitzer Prize in one of the science fields. Scientists have been trying to disprove the Theory of Evolution for over a hundred years and they have not succeeded. Every attempt to disprove the Theory of Evolution only solidifies it more and brings more concrete evidence to light.

Scientists are not bickering over the Theory of Evolution itself – they all know that evolution is a fact. What is still being worked out is “how” evolution occurs – the mechanism of evolution. Creationists see this as a problem with science, but it is the beauty of science. If we stopped researching as soon as someone said, “This is the cause,” then we’d never get anywhere and we’d still be living in the Stone Age. It is the constant endeavor to question and research that is the key to scientific success, not its downfall, as creationists would have the non-scientific believe.

TERRY: “THERE IS TWO PEOPLE AND I DON’T MEAN ALL BUT MOST SCIENTIST AND THEOLOGIANS ARE TO SMART FOR THEIR ON GOOD. THEY WOULD RATHER USE THEORY,S THAN COMMON SENSE.”

That may be your preference, but I would rather that scientists use theories to guide them in their scientific endeavors. I would rather that the scientific process be utilized in order to achieve a better life for mankind. If scientists only used common sense (they do use it by the way, when it comes to testing a hypothesis and theory) then we wouldn’t have all the marvels of technology, the advancement of medical science, the betterment of society, etc. As I said before, the use of the scientific method and science is the reason we are not stuck in the Stone Age.

To be perfectly honest, it is common sense that first directed me away from religion. It was logic and theory that later solidified my common sense approach to religion. Had it not been for common sense, I would still be groveling on my knees and begging forgiveness from an invisible man in the sky. Common sense was my salvation – not a fairy tale about a resurrected savior born from himself to die for himself to satisfy his own desire to burn his creation in a lake of fire if they don’t worship him.

TERRY: “WHEN ARE WE GONNA QUIT LETTING STATISTICS AND THEORY’S RULE THIS PLACE.”

You’re right. Let’s get rid of all the theories and get back to the basics. First, get rid of all your electricity and electronics since they operate on a theory. Then you can forget about that gravity thing – it’s another stupid theory. We don’t need the Theory of Gravity based on the Universal Law of Gravitation to explain why we stay put – it’s common sense – we don’t float away because we are heavy. Of course we can’t say we’re heavy anymore, because that is based on a theory of density.

Oh yeah, no more television or radio, since radio wave propagation is a theory. We can scrap all those silly theories and just run on regular old-fashioned common sense. The common sense that made us use leaches to cure every disease that came across us. The common sense that made women subservient and slaves to men with no rights. The common sense that placed our children to work on farms and plantations as slave labor.

Common sense has gotten mankind into trouble too many times. When common sense is confirmed with reason and logic, then are getting somewhere. That is not to say that people will use twisted logic to justify their common sense (just look at George W. Bush and his twisted logic in order to justify his “common sense”). If everyone is trained in actual logic and taught how to properly reason, we might find ourselves in a better environment.

Common sense has its purpose, but far too often it is subjective. One person’s common sense is another person’s stupidity.

Keep your common sense as your only source of knowledge if you must, but I’ll rely on logic, reason, and the rules of science to verify reality and I’ll base my common sense on that. Too many people use common sense as a base, instead of letting something concrete be the basis for their common sense.

TERRY: “ALSO I HOPE TO CONTINUE THIS DIALOGUE WITH YOU BECAUSE MY GOAL IS NOT TO CONVERT YOU ALTHOUGH IT WOULD ANSWER ONE OF MY PRAYERS, BUT ONE OF THE PURPOSES IS TO DEBATE OPPONENTS OF MY BELIEF SO THAT I WILL BE FORCED TOO DIG DEEPER AND MATURE MY KNOWLEDGE AND FAITH.”

Even if your goal was to convert me, I could assure you right now that you would fail. Perhaps during this dialogue and your endeavor to “dig deeper and mature your knowledge and faith,” it will be you that has a de-conversion? It’s not a prayer of mine, nor is it a hope, but common sense (as you would put it) dictates that it is certainly a possibility.

TERRY: “IF YOU CARE TO, I WOULD LIKE YOU TO LOOK UP PROVERBS 1524 IT IS MY FAVORITE VERSE. BUT BE SURE TO LOOK IT UP IN THE KJV.”

Proverbs 15:24 states, “The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.” [KJV]

Why do you insist on using the KJV? Most biblical scholars admit that the KJV isn’t a very good translation of the Septuagint. There are so many translations that your “favorite verse” has several different meanings. Just to give you an idea of how different they are based on how different people translate and what variant they use of the “original text,” let’s take a look at a few.

  • NASB (New American Standard Bible): The path of life {leads} upward for the wise that he may keep away from Sheol below.
  • HCSB (Holman Christian Standard Bible): For the discerning the path of life leads upward, so that he may avoid going down to Sheol.
  • NLT (New Living Translation): The path of the wise leads to life above; they leave the grave behind. (It should be noted that Sheol is Hebrew for grave – not Hell.)
  • GNT (Good News Translation): Wise people walk the road that leads upward to life, not the road that leads downward to death.
  • DRB (Douay-Rheims Bible): The path of life is above for the wise, that he may decline from the lowest hell.
  • MSG (The Message Bible): Life ascends to the heights for the thoughtful – it’s a clean about-face from descent into hell.
  • CJB (Complete Jewish Bible): For the prudent, the path of life goes upward; thus he avoids Sheol below.
  • NCV (New Century Version): Wise people’s lives get better and better. They avoid whatever would cause their death.
  • GWT (God’s Word Translation): The path of life for a wise person leads upward in order to turn him away from hell below.
  • BBE (Bible in Basic English): Acting wisely is the way of life, guiding a man away from the underworld.
  • YLT (Young’s Literal Translation): A path of life {is} on high for the wise, to turn aside from Sheol beneath.
  • LV (Latin Vulgate): semita vitae super eruditum ut declinet de inferno novissimo.

As you can see, there is a huge variety of the ways they were translated. The use of the word grave instead of hell is more accurate.

 

Terry Rebuttal #003:

THIS IS TERRY, I HAVE BEEN DEBATING YOU AND I NOTICED YOU HAVE POSTED OUR DEBATE, I LOST YOUR REBUTTAL WHEN MY COMPUTER WAS REBOOTED, THANKS TO YOUR WEB SITE I NOW HAVE IT AGAIN THANKS. WILL RESPOND ASAP (REBUTTAL).

I am stil waiting for his “ASAP” rebuttal…

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