Debate 022: Josh W and Blair debate faith healing

Josh W is a paperweight. His rebuttals are full of spelling and grammar errors. His information is sloppy and he has a hard time articulating. So why did I include this debate? I included this debate because it gives the reader a good idea of most of the “debates” that I get. Most of these I don’t post because they are not worthy of your time. I have a folder in my Inbox called “Unworthy Debates” where I sub-folder all the debates like this. Many times I don’t even warrant a good response. This time I did because I wanted the reader to know what most of the emails that I get are like.

Josh W Rebuttal #001:

i could give you a case from my church which a girl was prayed over and her sickness went away and she is living a very healthy lifestyle. If you believe that there is no God then how did the universe create itself . just looking outside at the sun and everything in the earth should tell you that this isnt pure chance that we are here.If you were a true atheist there would be no reason to go to school, work you have no purpose in this life if this all really just an aciident. a true atheist would not feel sorry for the people in 9/11 be cause they are just another piece of evolution anyway.the reason i am writing is not to condemn every atheist who ever lived but i just hope that you will realize the truth. he has given me a purpose and he can give you one too.

Response to Josh W #001:

JOSH: “i could give you a case from my church which a girl was prayed over and her sickness went away and she is living a very healthy lifestyle.”

If this is true then you can produce the medical records of the girl that clearly states her medical condition and then her medical record after this supposed faith-healing. There must be no medical interference at all, because if she was getting medicine or treatment, then that is what cured her – you’re just giving credit to the prayer when she was going to survive anyway. If you can do all that, then you’ll be the first person to prove a faith healing.

JOSH: “If you believe that there is no God then how did the universe create itself.”

See Where Did It All Come From?

JOSH: “If you were a true atheist there would be no reason to go to school, work you have no purpose in this life if this all really just an aciident.”

Is a True Atheist anything like a True Christian? Can you define “True Atheist” for me, because I have no idea what that concept is. As to purpose, please read Do Atheists Have a Meaning to Life? and Where Do Atheists Turn for Strength In a Crisis?

JOSH: “a true atheist would not feel sorry for the people in 9/11 be cause they are just another piece of evolution anyway.”

Actually, a True Christian wouldn’t feel sorry for those people because they should be happy – they all went to see the invisible man in the sky. An atheist, however, who knows that people only have one life to live and no afterlife, want people to live to a ripe old age. We want humans to live because it’s a one-way trip with nothing at the end but a pile of dirt and bones. Perhaps you should study a bit of humanism.

Josh W Rebuttal #002:

the doctors have no explainatio of how she was healed other than prayer, and also i do not believe that everyone on 9/11 went to see God on that day. if they had not acknowleged Jesus Christ as the true living God they went to Hell the same place everyone goes who does not acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord . I wonder how you can explain a big bang can explode when they cant explain where all this material that exploded came from so no matter how you look at it there was something here before us.

Response to Josh W #002:

JOSH: “the doctors have no explainatio of how she was healed other than prayer…”

So I’m sure there’s a press release from the hospital documenting this miracle of God. Since there was absolutely no medical intervention and there’s no way it was the medical science that healed her, the press was sure to be all over it – covering a miracle of God in this modern age of science. If you can point me to any of the press releases about this miracle healing I would greatly appreciate it. Or if you prefer, perhaps you can provide her medical records showing that no medical intervention was taken and where the doctors wrote in her prognosis, “Healed by prayer.”

JOSH: “…and also i do not believe that everyone on 9/11 went to see God on that day. if they had not acknowleged Jesus Christ as the true living God they went to Hell the same place everyone goes who does not acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord.”

So everyone that died before Jesus went to Hell? What about babies who die before they are indoctrinated in the church – do they go to Hell, too? What about feral children that haven’t heard from Christian missionaries – do they go to Hell, too?

Is your God so cruel that he would send entire populations to Hell because they haven’t heard of or accepted Jesus? One would think that an omnipresent being would be able to get his message across the world a lot faster. Instead he relied on one man in a particular geographic region (Palestine) to a particular ethnic crowd (Jews) and didn’t care about anyone else in the world. Then it took almost 2,000 years for the message to go global (because his followers thought the world was flat because the Bible says it is). There are still places today that haven’t heard of Jesus.

All of them are going to Hell because your Bible-God is an evil and immoral representation of man’s imagination.

JOSH: “I wonder how you can explain a big bang can explode when they cant explain where all this material that exploded came from so no matter how you look at it there was something here before us.”

The point is that they haven’t given up and won’t give up. Instead of saying, “God did it,” they are trying to find the source and diligently looking. The beauty of science is that it does not give up and keeps looking – no matter what the answer is. If you would like a more detailed answer for your question, I have addressed it online at Where Did It All Come From?

Josh W Rebuttal #003:

YES she was healed prayer and it will get no press coverage because we live in a secular website where no one wants to give credit to God for anything. Doctors do not even acknwlege God exists why would they give credit to someone they wont even recognize exists. Babies which have been aborted and other people who were not given a chance to accept the Gospel will not be held accountable but anyone who has reached the age of accountability who has not has for forgiveness of their sins will face punishment for their decision. That is not true what you said about Jesus. As Christ left this Earth he commanded to preach the gospel to everyone. I find it intersting that you are willing to believe a science thory which can not prove thier own theory but deny God when their is proof all around us.

Response to Josh W #003:

JOSH: “YES she was healed prayer and it will get no press coverage because we live in a secular website where no one wants to give credit to God for anything.”

That’s total hogwash. The media is full of theistic references and there are even media outlets devoted to 100% God, all day, all night – 24/7. Do a Google search for “Christian” and you’ll come up with over 105,000,000 hits on the web. Do a search for God and you’ll come up with over 111,000,000 hits. Do a search for Bible and you’ll get over 24,400,000 hits.

If there was truly a godly miracle performed exclusively by prayer with no medical intervention then the press would be all over it and the documentation would be on hundreds of shows that showcase “spirituality” and other such nonsense.

JOSH: “Doctors do not even acknwlege God exists why would they give credit to someone they wont even recognize exists.”

I think you’d be surprised to find out that most physicians are believers – not Christians, but believers; deists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. However, the physicians recognize that modern medicine is the effective way to cure someone – not prayer. They recognize the placebo effect of prayer, meditation, and biofeedback. These three things (all a form of relaxation therapy) cause the body to release endorphins and dopamine, which increases your white blood cell count. So using any form of relaxation therapy can help the healing process.

JOSH: “Babies which have been aborted and other people who were not given a chance to accept the Gospel will not be held accountable but anyone who has reached the age of accountability who has not has for forgiveness of their sins will face punishment for their decision.”

Where does this “age of accountability” come from? Can you give me a biblical reference for it? Where in the Bible does it talk about the “age of accountability” and this giant loophole that exists for those that haven’t acknowledged Jesus? The Bible says that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. I don’t remember reading any loopholes.

JOSH: “That is not true what you said about Jesus. As Christ left this Earth he commanded to preach the gospel to everyone.”

What do you mean it’s not true? Are you saying there was more than one Jesus on Earth? Jesus lived in Palestine. He was the only messenger. He was the only one crucified and resurrected. He was the only one that ascended to Heaven. This means that this all-powerful Bible-God of yours was only powerful enough to let a small geographic region know about him and know that Jesus was the only way to Heaven. This means that for almost 2,000 years there were millions of people around the world that died and went to Hell because the message of Jesus hadn’t spread around the world yet.

Are you denying that information? Are you denying that Jesus was not just in Palestine? Why was your Bible-God so incompetent and impotent that he could only provide his message to a small geographic region?

I’ll tell you why. The Bible-God doesn’t exist. The reason the message was in a small geographic region is because the men at the time thought that the world was flat and that it only extended for a few hundred miles (that might be an over-estimate).

I would also remind you that Jesus preached to the Jews – not the Gentiles. When a Gentile woman asked Jesus for help Jesus wouldn’t help her. It wasn’t until the woman said, “Even a dog gets scraps under the table,” that Jesus was embarrassed and helped the woman. It wasn’t until the Jews rejected him that the message was decided to be spread to “everyone.” Jesus was a Jew for the Jews – the Gentiles were second-best – they were the second pick after the primary recipient failed to receive the message. In God’s eyes you are second-best to the Jews.

I’ll say again what I said before because you obviously did not understand what I said. I would ask that you re-read it and really try to grasp it.

BLAIR: “One would think that an omnipresent being would be able to get his message across the world a lot faster. Instead he relied on one man in a particular geographic region (Palestine) to a particular ethnic crowd (Jews) and didn’t care about anyone else in the world. Then it took almost 2,000 years for the message to go global (because his followers thought the world was flat because the Bible says it is). There are still places today that haven’t heard of Jesus.”

Again, read it thoroughly and make sure you understand what I’m saying.

JOSH: “I find it intersting that you are willing to believe a science thory which can not prove thier own theory but deny God when their is proof all around us.”

Can’t prove their theory? Have you actually studied evolutionary biology? Do you even know the scientific method that is used to arrive at a scientific theory? I’m willing to wager that your answer is “no.”

As to this “proof all around us” of your Bible-God, perhaps you’d be willing to share it? Your apologists and theologians have failed to prove the existence of your Bible-God. What do you know that they don’t?

Josh W Rebuttal #004:

I just wanted to ask why you even care about these converstions which we have.

If I believed that nothing in this world mattered i would start partying and living life up right now.

Yes there may be a bunch of Christian websites but the only media coverage that Christians get is when they blow up a an abortion clinic or something that portays Christian in a negative light.

YEs I realize there are many Christian Doctors but they are not allwoed to express their beliefs to paptients in fear of a lawsuit. Jesus Christ did only preach in the area of Israel but if you read the book of acts the gospel is being spread to everyone. There is no special ethinic group to which you must belong to be saved. HAve you heard of the story of the woman at the well .She would have been considered in a social class beneath the Jews and Jesus talked with her.

One would also think that the very complex nature of everything in this world that it did not happen by random chance.

heres a little evidence for you Dont you think its sorda weird you can get this upset over someone who you dont think it exists.

What about universal morals. Every culture which has ever existed has tried to have some type of explaination of why were here. Why are you trying so hard to deny a God who wants to give a specific purpose for your life.

JOhn 3:16 for God so loved the world that he gve his only begotten son that whosover believeth in him will not perish but have everlasting life.

Response to Josh W #004:

JOSH: “I just wanted to ask why you even care about these converstions which we have.”

There are several reasons that I care about these conversation. Let me lay them out for you:

  • I find them to be entertaining – it’s a great source of amusement.
  • I find them to be great forms of mental exercise – they keep the brain working.
  • I think that conversations such as these help overall in the education of the multitudes. It is through conversations such as ours that each side learns more about each other. It is through this learning that ignorance and bigotry are slowly eroded and replaced with understanding. If a person is ignorant of something or fears it – then those are the two things that lead to bigotry and hatred. When we have these discussions then fear and ignorance are eroded and the bigotry subsides.

These discussions serve several purposes; one of which I consider to be a great cause in the betterment of humanity by working towards the eradication of religious bigotry.

JOSH: “If I believed that nothing in this world mattered i would start partying and living life up right now.”

Lucky for us atheists, we don’t believe that nothing in the world matters. We believe that the lives of human beings matter, that maintaining the natural resources of the Earth matters. We believe that the betterment of humanity should be the ultimate goal of society.

Each human being has a one-way ticket; there are no returns and the end of the trip is it – no afterlife, no resurrection. That means each human being should be given the right to live their one life to the fullest – to enjoy the beauty of nature, to enjoy the company of his or her fellow humans, to be able to matter in society and to contribute in a way they are capable of.

There will be no Revelation or Second Coming, so we must take care of the Earth as best as we can. When Jerry Falwell says he doesn’t care if he ruins the environment because “God’s coming back, anyway,” then it makes me sick to my stomach. To think that someone’s religious beliefs would make them not care about the environment that their children and grandchildren grow up in is sickening, to be honest.

It is the recognition that there is no afterlife or resurrection that gives the atheist a greater reverence for life. It is the recognition that there will be no Second Coming of Christ, Vishnu, or Krishna, that give the atheist a greater respect for the environment. The atheist spends more time making peace with his neighbor, while the theist spends all his time making peace with the sky.

JOSH: “Yes there may be a bunch of Christian websites but the only media coverage that Christians get is when they blow up a an abortion clinic or something that portays Christian in a negative light.”

Christian terrorists get the same coverage that Muslim terrorists get – that’s not surprising. What about EWTN and TBN? Just look at all the press that Judge Moore has gotten from his Ten Commandments stance? How many times have I seen Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson on TV spouting off on one subject or another? What about Alan Keyes or Ralph Reed? Jessie Jackson?

Each week our local TV station runs a segment called “Faith Matters” that covers local churches. Every newspaper that I’ve ever read has a religion section on Saturday or Sunday. The first six channels on my FM radio are Christian radio station. The biggest one around here is Power 88 FM – Broadcasting for the Lord. They have billboards, bumper stickers and signs everywhere. Their logo is a red cross surrounded by lightning that says “Power 88.”

No matter what the subject or topic, the news is drawn to the bad, which is why you see the bad stuff all the time. The pedophilia Catholic priest, the adulterous Protestant teacher, the racist Southern Baptist and the terrorists of all religions are the ones that get the headlines; that’s just the nature of the American television news – thriving on bad news in an environment of fear.

One would think that the Christians were used to it – bathing in an environment of fear; fear the wrath of God, fear the Devil, fear going to Hell, fear sin, fear the Sodomites, fear, fear, fear, and more fear. Go figure…

JOSH: “YEs I realize there are many Christian Doctors but they are not allwoed to express their beliefs to paptients in fear of a lawsuit.”

Is there a law against it? Most of the hospitals that I’m aware of are run by churches or have a religious affiliation; Baptist Medical Center, Jewish Hospital, Providence Catholic Hospital, Protestant Medical System, and others. I’m having a hard time reconciling what you are saying with the demographics of the medical care system in the United States.

JOSH: “Jesus Christ did only preach in the area of Israel but if you read the book of acts the gospel is being spread to everyone.”

As I already said, when the Jews rejected Jesus because he was a false messiah, the followers of the Jesus-Man decided to spread the message to the gentiles. That’s basic Christian theology; the message was given to the Gentiles because the Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah. Do you know why the Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah?

JOSH: “There is no special ethinic group to which you must belong to be saved.”

After the Jews rejected Jesus the message was approved for mass consumption (no pun intended). Prior to the rejection of the Jews, Jesus was preaching to the Jews and for the Jews. Gentiles need not apply.

JOSH: “HAve you heard of the story of the woman at the well .She would have been considered in a social class beneath the Jews and Jesus talked with her.”

Of course I’ve heard the story – I’m the one that referenced it. Jesus refused to talk to her and was indignant. It wasn’t until Jesus was embarrassed by her comment about dogs and scraps that Jesus reluctantly agreed to help her. Jesus was a bigot – embarrassed into action by a comment from a meek woman.

JOSH: “One would also think that the very complex nature of everything in this world that it did not happen by random chance.”

Luckily we have science to help us understand things like this. If we relied solely on our primitive minds we’d still think that lightning was caused by an angry God and that the Earth was flat and the center of the Solar System. We’d still be teaching schoolchildren that Noah’s Ark was real and that the entire Earth was covered with 29,050 feet of water (9 cubits above the highest mountain, which is Mt. Everest at 29,035 feet).

JOSH: ”heres a little evidence for you Dont you think its sorda weird you can get this upset over someone who you dont think it exists.”

I don’t get upset at the imaginary being in the sky. What I do get upset over is when the followers that insist that I believe in their imaginary friend. What I do get upset over is when the followers try to erode my Constitutional rights in order to make this a nation based on their imaginary friend. What I do get upset over is when the followers use their imaginary friend to justify bigotry, hatred, violence and disorder.

JOSH: ”What about universal morals. Every culture which has ever existed has tried to have some type of explaination of why were here.”

Yes, every culture has tried to explain it. With each culture the explanation gets more complex and closer to the actual truth. From a giant turtle carrying a load of dirt and clouds to a six-day creation, to a million-year creation where each incarnation of the god represents a link in the evolutionary chain. Of course most of the non-Abrahamic religions have accepted the science of evolution – just like they accepted the science of a spherical Earth, Sun-centered solar system (called heliocentric) and accepted that there is more than one planet around that might inhabit life.

It is basic human psychology that drives us to answer the question, “Why are we here?” Everyone answers that question differently it seems. No one has a monopoly on that answer. Religion appeals to that psychological need. Appealing to a need and actually providing a legitimate answer are not synonymous.

JOSH: “Why are you trying so hard to deny a God who wants to give a specific purpose for your life.”

I already have a specific purpose in life. The answer that the Bible-God gives is no more ludicrous and nonsense than the gods of the Qu’ran, Vedas, Qabalah, Kitab-i-Aqdas, Book of Shadows, Book of the Dead, Akarang Sutra, Tanakh, or the Kojiki.

I’m still waiting on your biblical support of the “age of accountability” loophole that you mentioned. Where did you arrive at this “Get out of Hell free” card that you’re promoting?

Josh W Rebuttal #005:

if you follow darwinism which you must for your reasoning of why you are here you do totally the opposite of what he tought. Darwin taught survival of the fittest and you want to teach that we should care for other human beings. IF only the strong survive i gonna do what only benefits me

Do you know that doctors have tell patients about abortion even if it goes against their religious beliefs. TO think our country can kill children without the blink of the eye is horrible. DO you realize that Jesus fits 430 messianic propheies from the old testament. Jesus fulfiiled them all.

Prophecies which were written 1000’s of years before his birth. how comeso many people saw Jesus after his crucifiction

Just as I repeat Jesu did come first to the Jews it did not mean he was not going to bring the gift of salvation to everyone. Jesus did not want the discpiles to go among the gentiles because they were not ready yet. As Jesus left this earth he told the disciples you will be my witnesses in Judea samaria and to the ends of the Earth.(acts 1:8)

Duringthis time Jesus sent his disciples to spread the good news to everyone.

If you accept the story of the woman at the well you must accept everything else Jesus did his healing his teaching his death and his resurection. and when you talk about bigotry and hatred what do you base that upon.

Without A god there are no morals people are free to do what they feel is right.

Where do you get your morals from.

Response to Josh W #005:

JOSH: “Darwin taught survival of the fittest and you want to teach that we should care for other human beings. IF only the strong survive i gonna do what only benefits me””

You are misinterpreting what “survival of the fittest” means. Survival of the fittest is not just an individual trait or characteristic, it is a trait and characteristic of a species. The term applies to individuals and the species as a whole. When it refers to individuals, it is not referring to “looking out for oneself” in the selfish manner that you have insinuated.

On an individual basis, survival of the fittest refers to the ability of that individual to survive ‘in total’. For example, in a troop of monkeys that is hit with disease, there will be individuals that are fitter and will more than likely survive the outbreak. Those monkeys in the troop that are more susceptible to the disease will die. This means that the next generation of the troop will have genes of the survivors.

The wildebeest that can cross the river successfully will go on to breed and pass on their genes to the next generation. The weaker wildebeest will drown and their genes will not be passed on. On a species level, the entire herd looks out for predators and they all run together to confuse the predator. The wildebeest that fall victim to predators tend to be the weaker among them.

Even in primates, the idea of social protection is present. This is where survival of the fittest works on a species level. The entire troop, fit and fat, work to help protect the troop from predators, help to feed the troop and look out for the young of the troop.

In the human species, we see both of these present. During times of disaster, the stronger (either physically or intellectually) survive and the weaker perish. The survivors make it out of burning buildings and the weaker do not. The fittest survives the week in the mountains in freezing weather, the weaker do not.

In a species level, we care for our young, we protect our elderly, we look out for the survival of the species on whole, which includes the “weaker.”

Many people assume that “weak” and “strong” refer to one’s physical strength and this is simply not the case. Someone that is fitter in intelligence may survive where a strongman with bulging muscles will perish because he couldn’t figure out how to escape his death. A fitter human with genetic tolerance to a disease will survive while his neighbor, with a weaker immune system will perish.

The “fittest” works in several arenas: intelligence, strength, immunity, genetic structure, brain capacity, flexibility, endurance, and many others. Different crises call for different strengths – and each one will see the “fittest” appropriate for that crises come out the survivor.

How many times have we seen video on TV documenting someone that pulled people from a burning building or rescued people from a collapse? Many times they are not the Hulk Hogan – they are the Bill Gates (no mal intent to Hulk Hogan for putting him in the same sentence as Bill Gates).

If you are going to try to argue against evolutionary biology and the theory of evolution, you should at least have a working knowledge of the two.

JOSH: “Do you know that doctors have tell patients about abortion even if it goes against their religious beliefs.”

That is because it is the law. Does not Jesus in your Bible tell you that you have to follow the law of the land? There are hospitals where religious physicians can work that do not promote or perform abortions (such as Catholic-run hospitals).

There are many laws that I disagree with, but I still follow them. I do what I can to get them changed using legal and proper channels, but I continue to obey them until they are challenged or overturned.

There are Islamic women that are forced to take their masks off to get a driver’s license, even though it is against their religious beliefs. Do you think that is wrong? The bottom line is that a law is a law – regardless of one’s religious beliefs about that law.

It is against the law to sacrifice chickens in New York City, even though it is a religious practice of Santeria and Voodoo. Most practitioners of that religion in New York City follow the law.

If we set aside laws based on religious grounds, then we would have anarchy. The test for such laws is whether the law prevents the free practice of one’s religion based on the freedom of religion. The ruling of Roe v Wade does not prevent anyone from practicing their religion. The ruling of the Florida Supreme Court against the Islamic woman to take her mask off to get her driver’s license, did not prevent her from practicing her religion. The law preventing cruelty to animals and having livestock in NYC does not prevent people from practicing their religion.

JOSH: “DO you realize that Jesus fits 430 messianic propheies from the old testament . Jesus fulfiiled them all.”

Please provide specific examples. I would remind you of the criteria needed in order to fulfill prophecy. The requirements for prophecy fulfillment are:

  1. The prophecy must be clear, and it must contain sufficient detail to make its fulfillment by a wide variety to possible events unlikely. [In other words a prophecy cannot be vague.]
  2. The event that can fulfill the prophecy must be unusual or unique. [A prophecy about a female menstruating during next month is not a prophecy.]
  3. The prophecy must have been prophesied before the event that is supposed to be its fulfillment. [Rather obvious – anyone can prophecy after an event.]
  4. The event foretold must not be of the sort that could be the result of an educated guess. [Anyone could have prophesied that war was going to break out in the Balkans because of existing conditions in the area.]
  5. The event that fulfills the prophecy cannot be staged, or the relevant circumstances manipulated, by those aware of the prophecy in such a way as to intentionally cause the prophecy to be fulfilled. [If you manipulate the environment to fulfill a prophecy then the prophecy has not come true – it has become “created”.]

JOSH: “how comeso many people saw Jesus after his crucifiction”

Who saw Jesus after his resurrection? What eyewitnesses? Can you provide even one eyewitness account? I would remind you that the gospels are not eyewitness accounts. None of the gospel-writers were witness to Jesus and never saw him alive. I would also remind you that you can’t use the Bible to prove the Bible. Do you have any eyewitness accounts from other sources?

JOSH: “Just as I repeat Jesu did come first to the Jews it did not mean he was not going to bring the gift of salvation to everyone.”

It sounds to me like you are putting your own interpretation on things. Did Jesus ever say that in the NT? I don’t remember anywhere Jesus saying, “I am here for the Jews, but that doesn’t mean I’m not here for the infidels (non-Jews).” No matter what happened after the Jews properly rejected Jesus as a false messiah, the fact remains that he was indignant of the gentiles and went to them only because the Jews rightfully rejected his bogus claims.

JOSH: “As Jesus left this earth he told the disciples you will be my witnesses in Judea samaria and to the ends of the Earth.(acts 1:8)”

Well, we all know where the “ends of the Earth” is. The “ends of the Earth” is at the horizon. The Earth was flat back then, and still is if you read the Bible. So Jesus wasn’t talking about “the world” as we know it in today’s scientific era, he was referring to the “known world” that was known back then. The OT and NT are full of references to this.

The use of “ends of the Earth” is a specific reference. In attempting to justify your argument that the message was somehow global, you have only shown my argument to be solidly based on biblical reference. How come your supposedly all-powerful god couldn’t get the message to the whole world at once? By doing it piecemeal with a single man in a single region, your Bible-God let millions of people die and go to Hell without ever hearing the message of Jesus. The only way to Heaven is through Jesus and millions of people died before ever knowing it. This happened because your Bible-God is an incompetent and impotent imaginary friend.

JOSH: “If you accept the story of the woman at the well you must accept everything else Jesus did his healing his teaching his death and his resurection .”

I don’t accept the story of the woman at the well. You are using the Bible and I am using the Bible. It doesn’t do me any good to quote the Qu’ran or Vedas to you when we’re talking about Jesus and the Bible-God.

JOSH: “Without A god there are no morals people are free to do what they feel is right.”

You mean that without a belief in a god that you’re scared of and without a fear of punishment (Hell), that you would be immoral. Are you telling me that the only thing preventing you from being an axe-murder or rapist is your belief in a god and his eternal punishment?

Is it truly morality when we do things for the reward? Are you being moral because you want to be, or because you want the reward of Heaven? When your children behave morally, that is one thing. When your children pretend to behave morally in order to get that chocolate chip cookie, then is that truly morality?

I would aver that the Christian theology is the immoral doctrine. There are two things that lead me to this conclusion:

1. The idea that an innocent man would be knowingly executed in order to save the guilty is an immoral doctrine. Jesus (an innocent) was executed to protect the guilty (sinners) and was done so knowingly (by the Bible-God). Can you imagine the uproar today if we found out that the District Attorney (God) had knowingly executed an innocent man (Jesus) in order to protect the guilty (sinners)? Christians everywhere would be demanding the resignation and criminal trial of the District Attorney – and yet their entire theology is built on that very premise.

2. The idea that one is forgiven by the death and resurrection of Jesus is an avenue of mischief. I can do what I want because “Jesus forgives me.” I can be a sinner because “Jesus died for my sins.” This logic is used on a daily basis by Christians worldwide. They commit the sin and then pray for forgiveness, and under biblical guidelines, they are given it. The Catholics have taken this to a new level with confession. Say a “Hail Mary” and play with your rosary beads and you’re forgiven and ready to enter the Pearly Gates again. This idea is immoral in my view and leads to many immoral acts.

JOSH: “Where do you get your morals from.”

I get my morals from several places, as you do. There are instinctual morals that are part of our genes (such as survival of the species). There are morals arrived from experience, such as feeling sadness at the loss of a loved one makes us realize the value of life. There are morals derived from social consensus, such as laws against drunk driving, but even these laws often go back to the morals arrived from experience (drunk drivers kill people, and experience teaches us the value of human life).

For a more in-depth look at morality, please see Are Atheists Immoral?

I’m still waiting on your biblical support of the “age of accountability” loophole that you mentioned. Where did you arrive at this “Get out of Hell free” card that you’re promoting?

Josh Rebuttal #006:

i stilall i would like to say in this email is jesus loves you. he gave his son Jesus Christ to die upon a cross for our sins. he did this so we would not have to spend eternity in hell.

romans 5:6 you see at just the right time why we were still powerless Christ died for the ungodly

Response to Josh #006:

I guess this means you can’t address any of the issues I brought up in the last email. Figured as much. Nice talking to you.

Things like this really irritate me. You take the time to really respond and engage and they can’t handle it – so they just bail out with a final quote of a scripture.

Josh Rebuttal #007:

I thought we had heard the last of Josh, but he felt compelled to send another email a month later. This new email contains nothing new except a promise to answer my questions. Why didn’t he answer all the ones from the previous six rebuttals? Oh well… here we go again…

glad to heais you from you again . i know i may never be able to prove God to you . but all I can say i hope you do not die being an unbeliever. i may not have all of the answers to your questions. but once you ask Jesus Christ in your life you will never be the same. any questions you might have i would be happy to try to answer

 

Response to Josh #007:

JOSH: “any questions you might have i would be happy to try to answer”

How about responding to the questions and rebuttals I posed in my last email to you? Why don’t we just start there?

I don’t want you to prove your god to me – I know you can’t and you know you can’t. I just want you to address the issues your brought up and that I responded to. If you are going to bring your faith on the offensive then you better be prepared to take defensive action – and so far you have not.

I’ll paste my last email for you to reconsider and address:

JOSH: “Darwin taught survival of the fittest and you want to teach that we should care for other human beings. IF only the strong survive i gonna do what only benefits me””

You are misinterpreting what “survival of the fittest” means. Survival of the fittest is not just an individual trait or characteristic, it is a trait and characteristic of a species. The term applies to individuals and the species as a whole. When it refers to individuals, it is not referring to “looking out for oneself” in the selfish manner that you have insinuated.

On an individual basis, survival of the fittest refers to the ability of that individual to survive ‘in total’. For example, in a troop of monkeys that is hit with disease, there will be individuals that are fitter and will more than likely survive the outbreak. Those monkeys in the troop that are more susceptible to the disease will die. This means that the next generation of the troop will have genes of the survivors.

The wildebeest that can cross the river successfully will go on to breed and pass on their genes to the next generation. The weaker wildebeest will drown and their genes will not be passed on. On a species level, the entire herd looks out for predators and they all run together to confuse the predator. The wildebeest that fall victim to predators tend to be the weaker among them.

Even in primates, the idea of social protection is present. This is where survival of the fittest works on a species level. The entire troop, fit and fat, work to help protect the troop from predators, help to feed the troop and look out for the young of the troop.

In the human species, we see both of these present. During times of disaster, the stronger (either physically or intellectually) survive and the weaker perish. The survivors make it out of burning buildings and the weaker do not. The fittest survives the week in the mountains in freezing weather, the weaker do not.

In a species level, we care for our young, we protect our elderly, we look out for the survival of the species on whole, which includes the “weaker.”

Many people assume that “weak” and “strong” refer to one’s physical strength and this is simply not the case. Someone that is fitter in intelligence may survive where a strongman with bulging muscles will perish because he couldn’t figure out how to escape his death. A fitter human with genetic tolerance to a disease will survive while his neighbor, with a weaker immune system will perish.

The “fittest” works in several arenas: intelligence, strength, immunity, genetic structure, brain capacity, flexibility, endurance, and many others. Different crises call for different strengths – and each one will see the “fittest” appropriate for that crises come out the survivor.

How many times have we seen video on TV documenting someone that pulled people from a burning building or rescued people from a collapse? Many times they are not the Hulk Hogan – they are the Bill Gates (no mal intent to Hulk Hogan for putting him in the same sentence as Bill Gates).

If you are going to try to argue against evolutionary biology and the theory of evolution, you should at least have a working knowledge of the two.

JOSH: “Do you know that doctors have tell patients about abortion even if it goes against their religious beliefs.”

That is because it is the law. Does not Jesus in your Bible tell you that you have to follow the law of the land? There are hospitals where religious physicians can work that do not promote or perform abortions (such as Catholic-run hospitals).

There are many laws that I disagree with, but I still follow them. I do what I can to get them changed using legal and proper channels, but I continue to obey them until they are challenged or overturned.

There are Islamic women that are forced to take their masks off to get a driver’s license, even though it is against their religious beliefs. Do you think that is wrong? The bottom line is that a law is a law – regardless of one’s religious beliefs about that law.

It is against the law to sacrifice chickens in New York City, even though it is a religious practice of Santeria and Voodoo. Most practitioners of that religion in New York City follow the law.

If we set aside laws based on religious grounds, then we would have anarchy. The test for such laws is whether the law prevents the free practice of one’s religion based on the freedom of religion. The ruling of Roe v Wade does not prevent anyone from practicing their religion. The ruling of the Florida Supreme Court against the Islamic woman to take her mask off to get her driver’s license, did not prevent her from practicing her religion. The law preventing cruelty to animals and having livestock in NYC does not prevent people from practicing their religion.

JOSH: “DO you realize that Jesus fits 430 messianic propheies from the old testament . Jesus fulfiiled them all.”

Please provide specific examples. I would remind you of the criteria needed in order to fulfill prophecy. The requirements for prophecy fulfillment are:

  1. The prophecy must be clear, and it must contain sufficient detail to make its fulfillment by a wide variety to possible events unlikely. [In other words a prophecy cannot be vague.]
  2. The event that can fulfill the prophecy must be unusual or unique. [A prophecy about a female menstruating during next month is not a prophecy.]
  3. The prophecy must have been prophesied before the event that is supposed to be its fulfillment. [Rather obvious – anyone can prophecy after an event.]
  4. The event foretold must not be of the sort that could be the result of an educated guess. [Anyone could have prophesied that war was going to break out in the Balkans because of existing conditions in the area.]
  5. The event that fulfills the prophecy cannot be staged, or the relevant circumstances manipulated, by those aware of the prophecy in such a way as to intentionally cause the prophecy to be fulfilled. [If you manipulate the environment to fulfill a prophecy then the prophecy has not come true – it has become “created”.]

JOSH: “how comeso many people saw Jesus after his crucifiction”

Who saw Jesus after his resurrection? What eyewitnesses? Can you provide even one eyewitness account? I would remind you that the gospels are not eyewitness accounts. None of the gospel-writers were witness to Jesus and never saw him alive. I would also remind you that you can’t use the Bible to prove the Bible. Do you have any eyewitness accounts from other sources?

JOSH: “Just as I repeat Jesu did come first to the Jews it did not mean he was not going to bring the gift of salvation to everyone.”

It sounds to me like you are putting your own interpretation on things. Did Jesus ever say that in the NT? I don’t remember anywhere Jesus saying, “I am here for the Jews, but that doesn’t mean I’m not here for the infidels (non-Jews).” No matter what happened after the Jews properly rejected Jesus as a false messiah, the fact remains that he was indignant of the gentiles and went to them only because the Jews rightfully rejected his bogus claims.

JOSH: “As Jesus left this earth he told the disciples you will be my witnesses in Judea samaria and to the ends of the Earth.(acts 1:8)”

Well, we all know where the “ends of the Earth” is. The “ends of the Earth” is at the horizon. The Earth was flat back then, and still is if you read the Bible. So Jesus wasn’t talking about “the world” as we know it in today’s scientific era, he was referring to the “known world” that was known back then. The OT and NT are full of references to this.

The use of “ends of the Earth” is a specific reference. In attempting to justify your argument that the message was somehow global, you have only shown my argument to be solidly based on biblical reference. How come your supposedly all-powerful god couldn’t get the message to the whole world at once? By doing it piecemeal with a single man in a single region, your Bible-God let millions of people die and go to Hell without ever hearing the message of Jesus. The only way to Heaven is through Jesus and millions of people died before ever knowing it. This happened because your Bible-God is an incompetent and impotent imaginary friend.

JOSH: “If you accept the story of the woman at the well you must accept everything else Jesus did his healing his teaching his death and his resurection .”

I don’t accept the story of the woman at the well. You are using the Bible and I am using the Bible. It doesn’t do me any good to quote the Qu’ran or Vedas to you when we’re talking about Jesus and the Bible-God.

JOSH: “Without A god there are no morals people are free to do what they feel is right.”

You mean that without a belief in a god that you’re scared of and without a fear of punishment (Hell), that you would be immoral. Are you telling me that the only thing preventing you from being an axe-murder or rapist is your belief in a god and his eternal punishment?

Is it truly morality when we do things for the reward? Are you being moral because you want to be, or because you want the reward of Heaven? When your children behave morally, that is one thing. When your children pretend to behave morally in order to get that chocolate chip cookie, then is that truly morality?

I would aver that the Christian theology is the immoral doctrine. There are two things that lead me to this conclusion:

1. The idea that an innocent man would be knowingly executed in order to save the guilty is an immoral doctrine. Jesus (an innocent) was executed to protect the guilty (sinners) and was done so knowingly (by the Bible-God). Can you imagine the uproar today if we found out that the District Attorney (God) had knowingly executed an innocent man (Jesus) in order to protect the guilty (sinners)? Christians everywhere would be demanding the resignation and criminal trial of the District Attorney – and yet their entire theology is built on that very premise.

2. The idea that one is forgiven by the death and resurrection of Jesus is an avenue of mischief. I can do what I want because “Jesus forgives me.” I can be a sinner because “Jesus died for my sins.” This logic is used on a daily basis by Christians worldwide. They commit the sin and then pray for forgiveness, and under biblical guidelines, they are given it. The Catholics have taken this to a new level with confession. Say a “Hail Mary” and play with your rosary beads and you’re forgiven and ready to enter the Pearly Gates again. This idea is immoral in my view and leads to many immoral acts.

JOSH: “Where do you get your morals from.”

I get my morals from several places, as you do. There are instinctual morals that are part of our genes (such as survival of the species). There are morals arrived from experience, such as feeling sadness at the loss of a loved one makes us realize the value of life. There are morals derived from social consensus, such as laws against drunk driving, but even these laws often go back to the morals arrived from experience (drunk drivers kill people, and experience teaches us the value of human life).

For a more in-depth look at morality, please see Are Atheists Immoral?

I’m still waiting on your biblical support of the “age of accountability” loophole that you mentioned. Where did you arrive at this “Get out of Hell free” card that you’re promoting?

 

Josh Rebuttal #008:

You say i can defend myself. your group can not explain how they even got on this earth. Without God there can be no beginning because life can come from nonlife. Even darwin realized this by the time of his death. all i know is God has always existed he created the world in 6 days and created man that 6th day. Man sole purpose on this earth is to glorify God. I believe Jesus came to this earth in the form of a man with still being God an died upon the cross to take the punishment for our sins. No one has ever been able to come up with a reasonable arguement denied Jesus rose from the dead. If you have one i would love to hear it. all i know is he has changed my life for the good .

 

Response to Josh #008:

I’m very disappointed in you. You said you would answer my questions and I presented them to you. I even gave you a third chance to address this supposed “age of accountability.” All those chances that I have given you to defend your religion and your Bible-God and this email is the best you can do?

Obviously you are not ready to defend your faith because you don’t know enough about it. Fair enough. If you’re not going to address the issues that I bring up, as I address the ones you bring up, then there is no need in continuing this dialogue. I’m not going to waste my time addressing you if you refuse to return the favor (or perhaps more accurately, you are unable to return the favor due to theological ignorance).

It’s been a hoot.

 

Josh Rebuttal #009:

i cant prove age of accountability to you because you do not believe in the bible.i will be happy to show whyi believe this. besides this is not as an important of an issue of how life began from non life . your group has never been able to defend this one. as soon as you can answer this give me a reply.

 

Response to Josh #009:

I don’t want you to prove the age of accountability. What I want you to do is show me the scripture that supports and age of accountability of 12. Where in the Bible does it say that children under 12 get a “Get out of Hell Free” card?

The Bible is clear that anyone that does not know Jesus and who does not acknowledge his death and resurrection are bound for Hell – there are no caveats or disclaimers for minimum age, mental illness, or being feral.

Just show me where in the Bible it says that no one under the age of 12 is in Hell.

I would love to hear why you believe the age of accountability is 12 if there is no scriptural basis for it.

This issue may not be an important issue relevant toward evolution or cosmology, but it is an important issue for Christian theology – one that you are trying very hard to avoid (like most apologists before you).

If you can’t answer the question then just say so – no reason to beat around the bush, burning or not.

As to your statement about life forming from non-life, the Christian inability to get over this little “hurdle” is simple a matter of misunderstanding the theory of abiogenesis, which is often confused with evolution.

The theory of evolution discusses how life evolved after it formed. Abiogenesis has several different hypotheses that scientists are working on. There is no theory for this process yet because we are still trying to understand it.

The reason you aren’t getting an answer is because there is no answer. Unlike theology, this is natural in the sciences. Instead of cowering behind mythology and saying, “God did it!” scientists look for answers. This is an answer that we are still looking for.

We can discuss the different hypotheses if you want to.

However, I’m more inclined to hear from you. You haven’t addressed a single issue that I’ve brought up since the very beginning. You have done nothing but evade and resist any attempt I’ve made to counter your statements. You have yet to respond to any of my challenges or statements.

If you can’t defend your faith, your Bible, and your Bible-God, then you shouldn’t be trying to proselytize – it just makes you look ignorant (at best).

Josh Rebuttal #010:

Yes you are true the Bible does not address the age of accounatibilty but we do do know that The Loving God we serve gives everyone an oppurtuinity to know of his glory. I am sorry for having brought such a y miniscule arguement when here is all I have to say . You say you do not follow a God but for all of your answers you are looking for science. The God I serve created Science and everything else that is in this world. The odds of thi world coming in to be as it is are the same as if a tornado swept through a junkyard and created a 747. For me it is is impossible to fathom that this world came to be byanything other than a Supernatural God.

 

Response to Josh #010:

JOSH: “Yes you are true the Bible does not address the age of accounatibilty but we do do know that The Loving God we serve gives everyone an oppurtuinity to know of his glory.”

If the Bible doesn’t say it, then how do you know it? Do you presume to know the mind of God? Is not that a deadly sin – to presume such? The Bible is clear that to get to Heaven one must know and accept Jesus Christ as their savior and acknowledge his death and resurrection on the cross for the sins of man. If one does not do that – by willful neglect or ignorance, then they are bound for the lakes of fire in Hell. There’s no getting around it no matter how much apologetics you try.

The doctrine of Hell is immoral and if the Bible-God were one day proven to be real (yeah, right) then I can aver that I would still not worship it because it is unworthy of worship. Anyone that forces people to love and worship him and kills off scores of people and threatens to torture and kill them if they do not believe as they do, is not worthy of anything but assassination.

We have had human forms that took the ideological form of the Bible-God here on Earth: Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Napoleon, Spanish Conquistadors, Spanish Inquisition, Crusaders, and many more. There are still some on the planet that fill every ideological form of the Bible-God in parts of Africa, the Middle East, and Asia.

Some of the very reasons that President Bush gave to attack Iraq and Saddam Hussein sounded like they were right of out Biblical descriptions of Yahweh.

JOSH: ”The odds of thi world coming in to be as it is are the same as if a tornado swept through a junkyard and created a 747.”

Do you know what a straw man argument is? Your comment about the 747 is a straw man argument. How can you say such a ridiculous thing? You don’t know what the odds are for a 747 to be built during tornadic activity in a junkyard – especially in an airplane junkyard, which increases the odds significantly. And if you have an airplane junkyard that is divided into airplane types, and the tornado goes through the 747 section of the junkyard, then those odds have increases again. [end sarcasm]

Not too mention, you have no idea what the odds are for the universe starting, for life beginning, etc. Apparently the odds are pretty good – because it happened.

JOSH: “For me it is is impossible to fathom that this world came to be byanything other than a Supernatural God.“

Well, that explains it all, doesn’t it? It’s impossible for you to fathom it – so you need the reassurance of a father figure in the sky.

And Josh disappeared into the masses… never to be heard from again.

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