Debate 020: Shelli and Blair get into a heated exchange

Shelli Rebuttal #001:

Why do Atheists keep mentioning September 11th and blaming God for the attacks? God gives us free will. We choose to love or to hate! He gave us our own minds! If we allow war to happen, God has to allow it. Satan is the king of lies! He wants us all to hate God. There were several September 11th stories about how many people were inexplicably late to work that day! Come on, God had to have been there, or many more people would have perished! The towers collapsed inward instead of toppling over. Many more people would have been killed! GOD IS PRESENT EVERYWHERE AT ALL TIMES! The cross they found standing upright in the rubble! That says it all. Without the Good Lord, the country would not have found its strength to pick up and recover from such a horrible tragedy! If you don’t have God in your life, how do you survive? How do you find comfort? How do you have peace? Science answers the how but not the why….but even science knows that energy has to go somewhere. It doesn’t just disappear. Our souls are our energies. Our breaths of life. Our physical body is temporal. Our souls are eternal. This lifetime is just a pit stop on the way to eternity. How can you deny an all-knowing God and rely on yourself instead? How can you reject the Christ Jesus who died on the cross for the salvation of all mankind? I shall pray for you. God Bless you.

 

Response to Shelli #001:

Please allow me to address your points individually so that you understand the concepts that you are questioning.

SHELLI: “Why do Atheists keep mentioning September 11th and blaming God for the attacks? God gives us free will.”

Welcome to the world of apologetics. The problem with a monotheistic god is that the god is blamed for everything: good and evil. That was unacceptable for the Christians, so they exaggerated the role of Satan and made him responsible for evil. But that wasn’t good enough in the long run because people soon figured out that if this nemesis, which was nothing more than a “fallen angel”, was giving their god a run for his money. How can an all-powerful god be trumped by a simple angle? It was a theological corner that the church had painted itself into. Then came advanced apologetics and the invention of the concept of “free will.”

I assume that since you think you are an educated Christian that knows Christian history that you are aware that the concept of “free will” did not come about until long after the Christian religion was formed? You were aware of that, right? You were aware that it was the church that created “free will” in order to remove the blame of evil from god, right? I’m sure you knew that.

SHELLI: “If we allow war to happen, God has to allow it.”

An oft-used analogy is that human beings are the children of God, who is the father. Let’s say that a child is getting ready to shoot his sibling. The parent is sitting in the room and watching this take place and he or she does nothing. The parent lets the child shoot his sibling and kill him. When the police ask the parent why he or she didn’t stop the child from shooting the other, the parent responds, “They have a choice. They have free will. If they decide to kill each other, I have to allow it.”

If the Bible-God allows evil to happen when he has the ability to stop it then that God is condoning the evil. The doctrine of “free will” is nothing more than an apologetic attempt to remove the blame of evil from your god. It is an immoral doctrine that reeks of capitulation to evil on the part of the so-called parent.

SHELLI: “Satan is the king of lies! He wants us all to hate God.”

This is a rather odd concept considering it is not backed up in the Old Testament. Why Pauline Christianity pegged on Satan when it was not founded in the Torah is still somewhat of a mystery, although most realize that he didn’t know the Torah very well and was a theological moron.

If Satan can deceive us, then he has more power of us than your Bible-God. How can we have “free will” if Satan can manipulate us? Why can’t the Bible-God manipulate us into knowing he exists? In the apologetics to eliminate the blame of evil on the Bible-God the Christians have made Satan more powerful than their “supreme being”, who as we are learning, is not that supreme after all.

Where is Satan mentioned in the Old Testament? And what is his role when he is mentioned?

The first mention of Satan in the Bible is in 1 Chronicles 21:1, which says, “And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.”

Satan convinces David to conduct a census of those “who drew the sword.” Joab, the one assigned by David to get the numbers, miscounted by two people (he purposely left out Levi and Benjamin). Because of this and the act of conducting the census, God gave David the choice of three punishments; three years of famine, three months of being defeated by his enemies or three days of “the sword of the Lord”, which was “the plague of the land, with the angel of the Lord destroying throughout all the territory of Israel.”

David chose the punishment of three days and God killed 70,000 Israelites through plague and destroyed Jerusalem.

Maybe it’s just me, but who did the most evil and immoral thing in this story? Satan is guilty of convincing David that he needed to know how strong his army was. God killed 70,000 people and destroyed a major city.

How did God make David personally pay for the heinous sin of counting his armed forces? God made David build an altar in a building owned by a man named Ornan, who was a Jebusite. Luckily for David, Ornan the Jebusite let David have the building at no cost and he even gave David the oxen and other stuff for the sacrifice upon the altar.

How is Satan the bad guy in this story? I don’t see it. This supposedly good God that Christians and Jews believe in performs the only evil deeds in this story.

The next mention of Satan is in the book of Job. Satan arrives at a gathering of “the sons of the Lord” and God asks him if he has considered Job, who God seems to think is the cream of the crop of believers and those that conduct the required sacrifices at the right time and place. Satan says that if God punishes Job that Job will basically bad-mouth God. So God gives Satan permission to mess with Job.

The first thing Satan does is have raiders steal his five hundred oxen and five hundred donkeys and slay the servants tending over them – leaving only one servant alive that could tell Job what happened.

Then Satan burned Job’s seven thousand sheep (the messenger said it was the “fire of God from Heaven”) and killed all the servants except the one that could tell Job what happened. Then Satan sent more raiders to kill Job’s three thousand camels and all the servants tending them except one that was allowed to tell Job what happened. Then Satan sends a great wind to destroy the house of Job’s children and they were killed as the house fell on them.

Job stood his godly ground and said a prayer to God at hearing this news – he wept none or was angry none – the only thing he did was shave his head and rip off his robe and prayed naked.

But God wasn’t satisfied. The next time the “sons of the Lord” convene God gives Satan permission to mess with Job directly – to harm his physical body but not kill him. So Satan gives Job boils over his entire body.

Okay, so again, where is the evil coming from in this story? Satan is doing the dirty work, but he’s doing it at the behest of God and with his full permission. Satan is not God’s archrival in Job – Satan is God’s helper; the Godfather’s hit man out on a contractual hit.

Another mention of Satan comes in Psalm 109:6, but in many translations the word is “an accuser” and not Satan. The majority of the Bible dictionaries and scholar notes list this as “an adversary” – not as Satan.

The next mention of Satan is in Zechariah 3:1-2, which is where the Lord actually rebukes Satan and says that Jerusalem rebukes Satan.

There is no mention of “Devil” in the Old Testament (KJV). The only mention of “Lucifer” is in Isaiah 14:13 (KJV), which is where Lucifer is the name of the Day Star – not the name of Satan or the Devil.

Satan is often attributed with the Original Sin and the downfall of humans from the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Knowledge. Yet nowhere in Genesis does it say that Satan was the serpent. Satan is never mentioned in the Garden of Eden or in the story of the Original Sin.

The bottom line is that the church could not blame their “loving” God for acts of terrorism (both natural and man-made). They had to have a scapegoat to blame all the evil on. Satan was transformed by the early Christian church from God’s right-hand-man into the alter ego of God with the same power and abilities. Satan became a god and Christianity became a polytheistic religion. Of course you’ll never get a Christian to admit that Satan is a deity.

SHELLI: “There were several September 11th stories about how many people were inexplicably late to work that day! Come on, God had to have been there, or many more people would have perished!”

You can’t be serious? Do you know how many people work in the WTC? Do you know on a daily basis how many of those people arrive late? If you’ve ever been to the NYC area (I have) you would know that thousands of people are late to work every day because of traffic jams, train delays, accidents, etc. The same amount of people that were late to work that day is the same amount that is late to work on any other NYC workday.

The other issue is that many people are on alternate work schedules. Many companies stager their employee work times in order to reduce traffic jams and congestions. Some start at 8 and others at 9. Those that started work at 9 that day never made it to work because they attack occurred between 8 and 9. If it were truly godly intervention then the attack would have occurred before 8 – so that no one was in the building.

Besides, you can’t have it both ways. Does god intervene or not? You said he couldn’t be accused of not stopping it because we have “free will” and allow it to happen. Then you entertain the idea that god made people late. If he can intervene in making people late to work, then that is not “free will”. You are contradicting yourself. You are giving your god credit for making people late – but refuse to give him credit for letting the tragedy occur in the first place.

You have, like many before you, painted yourself into a theological corner. You have placed the blame of evil onto man through “free will” and taken god’s hands out of the picture. Then you put god’s hands back into the picture when it comes to good. Either your god can intervene or he can’t. Which one is it? Does god intervene or does he allow humans to have “free will”? You can’t have it both ways.

SHELLI: “The towers collapsed inward instead of toppling over.”

And if you knew anything about physics and architecture you would know why that occurred. In order to topple the towers, you would have to hit them near street level. You can’t fly an airplane along the street to hit the WTC on the 14th floor. Again, are you giving god credit for making the tower collapse inward? If you are then you are saying that your god intervenes to save lives. If he did this, then you are also admitting that he failed to intervene in the first place and stop the tragedy from happening.

SHELLI: “GOD IS PRESENT EVERYWHERE AT ALL TIMES!”

So we don’t have free will. Thanks for clearing that up.

SHELLI: “The cross they found standing upright in the rubble! That says it all.”

It was actually leaning at a 45-degree angle, but we’ll forgive you of that bit of ignorance. What geometric form do you think they built the WTC out of? The T-bar was the most predominant geometric pattern in the construction of the WTC. That means that they found a lot of lower case t’s strewn throughout the rubble. Only one, which happened to be sitting at a 45-degree angle, caught the attention of Christians. Christians were desperate for some reassurance that god was there – they were ready to latch onto anything that helped them put aside the doubts they were having and their questioning of the “will of god.”

If you must latch onto the lower case t, which was the predominant geometric shape, then so be it. As to a testament to some god being there… you’re just pulling at straws.

SHELLI: “Without the Good Lord, the country would not have found its strength to pick up and recover from such a horrible tragedy!”

What you should really say is, “Many people would not have recovered so quickly from the effects of the 9/11 faith-based terrorist attacks if it had not been for the psychological need that religion, any religion, filled for many people. This was especially true for those that have a hard time accepting reality and need a make-believe religious world to feel better about what happens and to explain away the acts of man as “evil.”

Sure religious beliefs helped some people recover. But to give credit solely to your god is really egotistical of you. The Muslims in this country turned to their god to help them heal. The Buddhists turned to meditation to help them heal. The Hindus turned to Vishnu to help them heal. The Wiccans turned to Mother Earth and The Goddess to help them heal. It wasn’t any god that helped people – it was the calming effect that religious rites have on people – the biological reaction to prayer, meditation, trance, biofeedback, etc.

SHELLI: “If you don’t have God in your life, how do you survive?”

I survive the same way that you do. I live in a house to protect me from the environment. I go to the grocery store to buy food and water to sustain me.

Certainly you are not suggesting that you can survive without these; that only God allows you to survive? Are you willing to quit your job, sell your house, sell your clothes, sell your car and then give all your money away so that you are homeless, have no vehicle, are jobless, and have no money? Then see if you can survive on God alone. You survive because YOU do the work. You get a job, you buy the groceries, you tend the house, etc.

When something good happens you give your Bible-God the credit instead of giving yourself a pat on the back for doing the work. When something bad happens then what do you do? You blame yourself. This goes back to this so-called “free will” that you claim we all of us has. If we truly have “free will” then you must give yourself credit for everything: both the good and the bad. You cannot give your Bible-God credit for the good if you truly have “free will.”

SHELLI: “How do you find comfort?”

See the following sections of Atheism Awareness to answer that question: Do Atheists Have a Meaning to Life? and Where Do Atheists Turn for Strength In a Crisis?

SHELLI: “Our souls are our energies. Our breaths of life. Our physical body is temporal. Our souls are eternal.”

What proof and evidence do you offer to back up this claim that our energy is our soul?

SHELLI: “How can you deny an all-knowing God and rely on yourself instead?”

Can you force yourself to believe in pink unicorns and Leprechauns? Can you force yourself to believe in Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster? Why not? You can’t force yourself to believe in these things because you have seen no proof. So why do you believe in a god? Why do you believe in a god that is so contradictory and evil and based on a book full of errors and contradictions?

I guess what it boils down to is that I don’t need the psychological crutch of a god like you do.

SHELLI: “How can you reject the Christ Jesus who died on the cross for the salvation of all mankind?”

Can you prove that Jesus died on the cross or that he even existed?

SHELLI: “I shall pray for you.”

If you must. I’ll let you in on a little secret; prayer doesn’t work. There are tons of people that have prayed for me, are praying for me and will pray for me. I’m still an atheist and I have yet to see any proof of your god or any other version of mankind’s gods. I don’t ask for much. All I need if for the invisible man to come down and sit at my kitchen table and have a conversation with me. Yep, that’d be all that I need to accept that a god exists – no matter which religion makes the claim.

In the meantime, get on your knees and grovel if you must. If that makes you feel better then more power to you – I hope you’re happy.

Shelli Rebuttal #002:

Your views absolutely make no sense. We can have free will and divine intervention at the same time. Apparently, you only believe in what you can see. Don’t compare earthly parents in every way to an all-knowing God, who is far more powerful than Satan ever will be. Jesus Christ has already defeated Satan. The God in the Old Testament is slightly different than the God in the New Testament. He sent his only begotten Son into the world to save our souls from eternal hell, which is where all humankind belongs. However, because of the crucifixion and resurrection, our sin debts have been paid in full. I find it odd that you seem to believe in the stories of a “so-called evil God” in the Old Testament but then refuse to believe that Jesus Christ ever existed. A man who was completely without sin. So you believe the bad but not the good? That is ignorance. God does not or has ever condoned evil. Why do you think he sent Jesus to Earth for our salvation if he did not love us? Do you actually believe the complexities of this universe are completely random? How can life create itself if a house can’t even build itself? So, I guess atheists sit and wait for the trees to chop themselves up and construct a house for them? There has to be a blueprint for everything that is created, and there has to be a creator. How can you look at the beauty of nature and not see God in everything? Come on. Common sense. Every person has their destiny laid out before they are even born. God frames them, we add the colors to the palette. Sorry, this is not a perfect world. Bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people. But God is in absolute control of everything. He knows where everyone is going to end up. Everything happens for a reason. If God did not allow bad things to happen, how could we grow as people? How would we mature? How would we become stronger and wiser? Even earthly parents have to allow their children to make mistakes. Although, God is infinitely wiser and far beyond our understanding. Atheists, in their stubbornness and foolishness, are simply rebelling against an authority they simply can’t understand. So, they have to try to explain things away scientifically. Face it, you all know deep down inside there is a God. Stop the insurrection, or you will learn the truth the hard way. Prayer does work, by the way, for people who love, trust, and give their lives to the Good Lord. I am living proof of that. Atheists are not heard by God. He doesn’t know you. If you shove him out of your life, you are out from under His wings of protection. And we wonder why this world is going to hell? No one wants to live by God’s rules anymore, but yet everyone wants to go to Heaven. Except for the atheists, who do not care. What part of “Thou shalt not” don’t you understand? Remember, God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, one of which is “Thou shalt not kill”. Doesn’t sound like an evil God to me. If everyone followed these ten simple rules of love and moral behavior, there would be less violence, less disease, less hatred. You can’t argue with that. So, with your frail views and misconceptions about so many things, you have failed to convince me there is no Almighty Creator watching us from afar. I will pray for your salvation. God Bless you.

Hmmmmmmmmm. Atheists say the Bible is full of errors and contradictions. That may be because MEN wrote it through their own interpretations. Who else is prone to error but humankind? The Bible cannot all be taken literally. People may read it front to back and have so many interpretations of it. The 66 books of the Bible were written by several different wise men. God is perfect, but men aren’t. The truth, however, cannot be changed. You atheists can explain things away as scientifically and logically as you please. However, what do you do when you can’t explain something with practical knowledge? Fill in that gap. Why was the universe created? Face it, the thinking of atheists is VERY limited. The Bible isn’t just about the stories. It is about the moral teachings of a loving, faithful, Almighty God who created us to have fellowship with Him. If you want evidence of what happens when you don’t follow His teachings, just look at human history for a good reference. God does not MAKE anybody kill. God does not kill anyone. Those are Satan’s lies. MEN choose to be good or evil. People need to stop blaming God for everything and start taking responsibilities for their OWN actions. Men can be just as evil today as they were thousands of years ago. If it is not good, it is NOT of God. If you have hate in your heart, you are NOT of God. If you are NOT of God, you are ALREADY dead. So stop dwelling on the Old Testament stories of a vengeful, wrathful God who wanted to punish His unruly, evil children, and focus entirely on His loving guidelines for a happy, healthy, abundant life on this Earth. GOD IS LOVE! If everyone would just stop thinking of “me, myself, and I” all the time, this would be a much better world in which to live. Start with the TEN COMMANDMENTS (which belong in the public schools), please! In conclusion, for those who do not believe that free will and divine intervention cannot both happen (again, limited thinking), they can. God does not directly interfere with our free will, but He can protect us from any harm or danger that may accompany any choices that we make. Example: a person who chooses to drive while intoxicated, ends up in a potentially fatal car accident, and walks away without a scratch (from a scientific point of view, he absolutely should have died as others in the exact same situation have in the past). God Bless.

God says, “My ways are not your ways. My thoughts are not your thoughts.” All he asks of us is to trust Him and not to worry about understanding everything that He does.

 

Response to Shelli #002:

SHELLI: “We can have free will and divine intervention at the same time.”

If the divine intervenes in our lives, then our choices are irrelevant. If the divine intervenes then we do not have free will. You cannot have it both ways – either we have free will or we live under divine intervention.

If god has the power to intervene and does not – then he is guilty. If god cannot intervene – then he is impotent. Either way, he is not worthy of worship – even if he exists.

SHELLI: “Apparently, you only believe in what you can see.”

Using the term ‘believe’ loosely, I believe what can be proven. You?

SHELLI: “Don’t compare earthly parents in every way to an all-knowing God, who is far more powerful than Satan ever will be.”

It wasn’t a comparison – it was an analogy. Regardless, I will compare your Bible-God to earthly parents. The bottom line is that your Bible-God, as a “parent,” is a complete failure. He purposely kills his children. He lets his children die when he has the capability to stop their death. He lets his children become ill and diseased when he has the ability to stop it. The Bible-God would be thrown in jail for child abuse and child negligence if he weren’t a pretend character in a fairy tale book.

SHELLI: “Jesus Christ has already defeated Satan.”

Why did Satan need to be defeated by Jesus? Is your Bible-God so impotent that he couldn’t beat Satan? Didn’t you say that your Bible-God was more powerful than Satan? It sounds to me like Satan is kicking your Bible-God’s arse.

But why did Satan need defeating in the first place? I think the only thing you know about Satan is what you hear in church from your mythology teacher, I mean preacher. Let’s take a Satan pop quiz.

  1. What does satan mean?
  2. How many times is Satan mentioned in the OT?
  3. How many times in the OT does Satan act without God’s permission or guidance?

SHELLI: “The God in the Old Testament is slightly different than the God in the New Testament.”

So God evolved? Or is he a different god altogether?

SHELLI: “He sent his only begotten Son into the world to save our souls from eternal hell, which is where all humankind belongs.”

So everyone that lived before Jesus is in Hell? If Jesus is the only way to Heaven – then everyone that lived before Jesus didn’t even have a chance of making it. Abraham, Job, Lott, Solomon, Adam and everyone else all went to Hell because they never knew Jesus. Babies that die before going to church go to Hell because they don’t know Jesus. Feral children raised without knowledge of Jesus go to Hell because they don’t know Jesus. Mentally retarded children and grown-ups go to Hell because they can’t understand the concept and don’t know Jesus.

SHELLI: “However, because of the crucifixion and resurrection, our sin debts have been paid in full.”

So basically you’ve skirted all your responsibilities off on Jesus. You can do whatever you want and it’s okay because Jesus died for your sins and you are forgiven. How is that doctrine moral?

SHELLI: “I find it odd that you seem to believe in the stories of a “so-called evil God” in the Old Testament but then refuse to believe that Jesus Christ ever existed.”

Why do you think I believe in the stories? Oh, you mean you don’t get sarcasm and reference? Oh, my bad. Allow me to put it in black and white since you don’t understand referencing: I don’t believe in your Bible-God. I don’t believe in your Bible-Satan. I don’t believe in your Bible-Jesus. I don’t believe in Adam and Eve, the Global Flood, the Burning Bush, the Exodus, the Virgin Birth, the resurrection or the Second Coming. The Bible is a book of allegories, fables and legends, written by men.

I don’t refuse to believe that Yeshua existed. There is no evidence to prove that he did, so I don’t believe that he did at this time. If evidence were to present itself, then I would rethink that position. You do realize that Christ is a title and not a last name, right? It should be the Christ Jesus or Jesus the Christ. It’s a shame that atheists know more about Christianity then Christians do. Of course that’s why we’re atheists – we know more about Christianity.

SHELLI: “So you believe the bad but not the good? That is ignorance.”

No, that would be stupidity – not ignorance. What is stupid is coming away from my last email thinking that I believed in the “bad God.” Ignorance is a lack of information – one is ignorant when they do not have all the information – like you when it comes to the information about Christianity and Christian theology.

SHELLI: “God does not or has ever condoned evil.”

Really? Remember what I said about your ignorance? Let’s just start with one example: Job. Who do you think sent Satan to mess with Job? Who do you think gave Satan the guidelines in how to mess with Job? Who do you think told Satan to step it up and increase the pain and suffering to Job? I would suggest that you read Job and see who the real evil villain is in that story.

SHELLI: “Why do you think he sent Jesus to Earth for our salvation if he did not love us?”

Why did it take him so long? If your Bible-God is so powerful, surely he knew what was going to happen. If he did, then why waste all that time? Why the Global Flood where he killed all of mankind (save a family) and all of the animal kingdom (save two of each species)? Why all the torture, killing and mayhem? Was God just getting his evil-doing out of his system?

SHELLI: “Do you actually believe the complexities of this universe are completely random?”

Yes. You actually believe that an invisible man in the sky created the Earth in six days to include only two humans. You believe that this all-powerful being lacked the foresight to create Eve right away because he should have known that Adam would be bored. You believe that this all-powerful being couldn’t find Adam & Even in the garden after they ate from the apple tree; that he had to wander around looking for them? You really believe that?

SHELLI: “How can life create itself if a house can’t even build itself?”

As much as Christians love strawman arguments, you’d think their God was a Sacred Scarecrow. If you don’t know what a strawman argument is, then you shouldn’t be debating.

SHELLI: “So, I guess atheists sit and wait for the trees to chop themselves up and construct a house for them?”

So, I guess Christians sit and wait for their God to do it for them? No? Oh yeah, they have to do it themselves because their God doesn’t exist.

Please explain how the analogy between a house and a life works. What aspects of a house are comparable to a life form? What part of a house lives and breathes and reproduces? Man obvioiusly intelligently designs a house – we can see it being built. Have you seen your Bible-God build a life form? Have you witnessed this building so you can positively say that it is intelligently designed? I can prove a house is intelligently designed – can you prove that life is?

SHELLI: “There has to be a blueprint for everything that is created, and there has to be a creator.”

Let me rephrase that sentence for you so that it speaks the truth. “There has to be a creator of everything because I want there to be. I’m too scared of my own mortality so I need a Creator to give me purpose and make death less scary for me.”

SHELLI: “Every person has their destiny laid out before they are even born.”

Oh… so we don’t have Free Will, then. It’s good to know that you agree with me that we don’t have free will. I don’t agree with the whole destiny thing, but at least we agree that free will is a fraud invented by apologists to take the blame of evil off of their god.

SHELLI: “If God did not allow bad things to happen, how could we grow as people? How would we mature?”

We’re not talking about minor things here. We’re not talking about letting your teenage son learn his lesson about women the hard way. We’re talking about the wonton destruction of human lives. We are talking about major catastrophes and disasters. When people are killed by evil acts and they are killed by “acts of God” (AKA natural disasters) then how do they grow? They’re dead – they can’t grow and mature. The bottom line is that you have now admitted that your Bible-God lets it happen. He knows about it and lets it happen. Your Bible-God has foreknowledge of a crime, a murder, a catastrophe, a disaster and he lets it happen. Your Bible-God is responsible.

SHELLI: “Even earthly parents have to allow their children to make mistakes.”

Um… didn’t you reprimand me for using that analogy?

As I said above, making mistakes is one thing; killing people is another. The parents that let their children die with full knowledge are guilty under our legal system. Parents that kill their children are guilty under our legal system. If your Bible-God allows death to occur, especially on the scale of natural disasters and events like 9/11, then he is guilty of aiding and abetting known criminals, criminal negligence, accessory to the fact and many other charges – both federal and state criminal charges.

SHELLI: “Face it, you all know deep down inside there is a God.”

You’d like to think that, wouldn’t you? If that’s the case then why are you emailing me and going through all this trouble? If we all know deep down inside that there is a God, then we’re not really atheists? If that is the case, then we recognize God and we get to go to Heaven. So why are you wasting your time?

SHELLI: “Prayer does work, by the way, for people who love, trust, and give their lives to the Good Lord. I am living proof of that.”

 

Prove it.

SHELLI: “Atheists are not heard by God. He doesn’t know you.”

The more and more we talk the more and more we find out that your Bible-God is not all that powerful and not all that knowing. You make your Bible-God sound like an incompetent nincompoop.

SHELLI: “Remember, God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, one of which is “Thou shalt not kill”. Doesn’t sound like an evil God to me.”

Have you ever read the entire Bible? I don’t think you have. Soon after the delivery of the Decalogue, God sends Moses on a killing rampage to destroy an entire tribe. God tells Moses to kill everyone except for virgin girls – they are to be taken as wives. They kill men, women and children. What part of “Thou shalt not kill” does your Bible-God not understand?

SHELLI: “If everyone followed these ten simple rules of love and moral behavior, there would be less violence, less disease, less hatred.”

And yet in every historical instance of a Christian theocracy, where the Decalogue was followed as you suggest, the society failed and failed miserably. The society ended in bloodshed and destruction. The strict adherence to the Decalogue causes societies to fail. Let’s look at the Decalogue and see how they’ll work in society if they are adhered to strictly as you suggest.

I Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

It’s interesting to note that it doesn’t say, “There are no other gods.” Yahweh is basically saying that there are other gods out there – he just wants to be the number one god – the Zeus of Judaism. Anyway, what would you have those people of other religions do in your society? Will you force non-Christians to become Christians? This commandment cannot work under our Constitution and is in direct violation of our freedom of religion. What does this commandment have to do with love or moral behavior? Are you suggesting that only Christians are moral people?

II Thou shalt not worship false idols or make graven images… blah blah blah…

What does this have to do with love and moral behavior? Are you suggesting that Buddhists are immoral? Are you prepared to get rid over everything that people worship and to disregard religious freedom?

III Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

Again, what does this have to do with love and moral behavior? Are you suggesting that we get rid of freedom of speech?

IV Remember the Sabbath…

Christians violate this law every Sunday. The Sabbath, as recognized in the OT, starts Friday night and ends Sunday morning. The Sabbath is on Saturday – not Sunday. So every Saturday that you work you are violating the fourth commandments. Every Sunday that you go to church you are violating the fourth commandments. Do you know where the idea of a Sunday Sabbath came from? It wasn’t the Bible. The Sunday Sabbath came from a bunch of men in 325 CE at the Council of Nicea. Yep, a bunch of men overrode your Bible and moved the Sabbath to another day – a day not sanctioned by your Bible-God.

Of course we’ll have to stop everything on Sunday – no working at all if we are to follow this strictly. Electricity will be shut off because workers can’t man the power stations. Hospitals, rescue squads, police stations and other emergency services will be shut down – so if anyone is injured on Sunday – it’s in God’s hands. But that’s okay, because you said above that everything happens for a reason, so if God allows people die on his Sabbath – then so be it. Who are we to question his evil acts?

Of course we’ll have to worry about criminals because the corrections officers will be home on Sunday and no one will be guarding the prisoners. We’ll have to stay at home and won’t be able to go anywhere because nothing will be open – no gas stations, no stores, no supermarkets, no train stations, no airports, no bus terminals, no fast food joints. That means you can’t enjoy that Sunday buffet at Sizzler or Golden Corral anymore – the waiters, waitresses and cooks will be at home.

Then there are the economic impacts of not allowing work on Sunday. 8 hours of lost wages each week for those people struggling to make ends meet. 8 hours of lost income for businesses and communities. 8 hours of lost taxes for governments. That’s a lot of money (in the billions) each Sunday that we stay home in our dark houses with no TV or radio – no electricity or natural gas – nothing.

What does this one have to do with love and moral behavior?

V Honor thy father and thy mother…

That’s okay to live by, but parents aren’t always honorable and sometimes they don’t deserve honor. Will we force children to honor their parents if their parents abuse them physically, mentally or sexually? Will we force the 13yo girl to stay and honor her father that sneaks into her room every night to molest her? Yeah, I guess we will since we want everyone to obey these commandments. We’ll let a few live a life of horror so that the Christians can have their theocratic way.

VI Thou shalt not kill.

Great rule to live by, but it’s not original. Long before the Decalogue societies were striving for this. Of course if we adhere to it strictly… We get rid of the death penalty. We get rid of our military because a nation that doesn’t kill has no reason for a military – either defensive or offensive. We stop the slaughter of animals and all become vegetarians. Of course God gives us plenty of reasons to kill even with this law, doesn’t he? Why bother with this law if God is going to give us a bunch of reasons to kill, anyway? Women that are seduced by men other than their husbands are to be killed. Prostitutes are to be killed. Women who practice black magic are to be killed. Strangers (non-Christians and infidels) that enter the temple are to be killed. Children that disobey are to be killed. People that work even the simplest task on the Sabbath are to be killed. Of course there’s plenty more, but why continue. With all the reasons to kill people, seems rather silly to have commandments number 6. So we have a contradiction – we can’t kill, but we’re given reasons to kill.

We don’t need this one, anyway – we have laws against murdering. Laws against murdering existed before the Decalogue.

VII Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Ok, I can see this for married people – makes sense. This doesn’t have much to do about love. Just because one doesn’t have an affair doesn’t mean one loves their significant other. Many people hate each other but feel too guilty to have an affair. As for moral behavior… are those that have affairs more likely to commit a crime?

How do we reconcile this in our new Ten Commandments following society that you’ve schemed up? Because of number 4 we can’t kill adulterers, even thou the Bible tells us to (at least the woman, anyway). I guess we’ll have to set up house monitors and track everyone so we know if they are copulating outside their marital bed. Yep, so much for civil rights – we have to track everyone to know if they are being faithful or not.

VIII Thou shalt not steal.

Ok, I can see the morality in this one, but it was a law long before the Decalogue in other societies. What took the Jews and the Bible-God so long to catch up to the rest of civilized society? To make this happen we’ll have to really step up either our prisons or our social justice and social action. We’ll have to get rid of all the homeless and hungry – we don’t want those people stealing apples from the farmer or a bottle of formula for their starving babies living in a cardboard box.

IX Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. AKA: Thou shalt not lie.

I guess the love thing works a little bit, and maybe the morality a bit – but not enough to really justify 100% compliance. Sometimes lying is okay, though and sometimes it is even necessary. Compassion leads to a lot of lying – we lie about a medical patient’s condition so they feel better. We lie about how someone looks so that we don’t insult him or her. We lie about how precious that really ugly baby looks so the parents don’t feel bad. Well, so much for the politicians – I guess we’ll lose a representative government… Actually, I think I’m inclined to agree with you on number 9 – I think a brutally honest world would be awesome. Imagine how much fun it will be to finally tell that really ugly kid down the street, “Dude, you are one ugly kid.” Or when our wives ask, “Honey, does this make me look fat?” We can say, “Sweetie, everything makes you look fat because you are fat.” And we can be brutally honest because God told us not to lie – under any circumstances.

X Thou shalt not covet… blah blah blah

Well, so much for capitalism. I guess we’ll have to move over to socialism or communism. Christian Communism – has a nice ring to it, doesn’t it? Why would I covet my neighbor’s ox, anyway? I have a nice car to drive – he can keep his ox. Of course in a non-coveting society I wouldn’t have that car – we’d both have an ox. Um… what does this one have to do with love and moral behavior?

SHELLI: “So, with your frail views and misconceptions about so many things, you have failed to convince me there is no Almighty Creator watching us from afar.”

I wasn’t trying to convince you that there was no almighty creator. You were the one that contacted me trying to convince me that there was one. I was just responding. I’m still waiting for the proof.

SHELLI: “I will pray for your salvation.”

You and a thousand others. It doesn’t bother me – so pray away. I don’t mind if you waste your time.

SHELLI: “Atheists say the Bible is full of errors and contradictions. That may be because MEN wrote it through their own interpretations. Who else is prone to error but humankind?”

Are you fully admitting that the Bible is not the “Word of God,” but is instead the work of men attempting to interpret the world around them and their belief in their god? Are you admitting that the Bible is full or errors, contradictions and inconsistencies? If this is the case, then how do you reconcile what parts of the Bible to believe and what parts not to believe? How can you tell what is authentic and what is not?

SHELLI: “The Bible cannot all be taken literally. People may read it front to back and have so many interpretations of it.”

So how do you know what parts are to be taken literally and what parts are not? What if you choose wrong and follow something as an allegory that should be literal or vice versa? You’d think that an all-powerful god would ensure that the Bible and Apocrypha were easy enough to understand that people would get it without having to interpret it. For an “all-knowing” guy he doesn’t seem that smart, especially considering the source: the Buy Bull.

SHELLI: “You atheists can explain things away as scientifically and logically as you please. However, what do you do when you can’t explain something with practical knowledge?”

Well, unlike the theist, we don’t go off the deep end and proclaim that some invisible man is behind everything we can’t explain. There are many unexplained things, but nothing is unexplainable. Christians fail to see that difference. They immediately say, “God did it,” whenever they can’t explain something right away. The logical person, the person that uses reason, will look for a valid explanation and try to understand the phenomenon. It is for this reason that science has advanced as much as it has.

Can you imagine if Benjamin Franklin had simply left the “God did it” explanation for the phenomenon of lightning? Can you imagine if Thomas Edison had left the “God did it” explanation alone and never messed with filaments and wiring? Can you imagine if the Wright brothers had listened to their local preacher when he said, “If God had meant man to fly he would have given him wings”?

It is the willingness of many men and women throughout history to throw out the “God did it” lunacy and to really analyze what is going on and to discover the true nature of the phenomenon. The supernatural becomes the natural as explanations are found and an understanding of the event is reaches. What if scientists like Bruno, Galileo, Newton and others had listened to the church and their “God did it” version? We would still be living on a flat earth that was the center of the solar system and the sky would be a filament instead of an atmosphere and stars would be pinpricks in the curtain of the filament.

SHELLI: “Face it; the thinking of atheists is VERY limited.”

I’ll face it when you prove it. The only limited thinking I’ve seen is from your end.

SHELLI: “The Bible isn’t just about the stories. It is about the moral teachings of a loving, faithful, Almighty God who created us to have fellowship with Him.”

You just described almost every sacred text of most religions. There’s nothing wrong with looking for the good and moral lessons in the teachings of all religions and philosophies. But when people leave the morality behind and embrace the literalism that is when bigotry and ignorance are born.

SHELLI: “If you want evidence of what happens when you don’t follow His teachings, just look at human history for a good reference.” [sic]

When I look at history what I see is a bunch of bloodthirsty religious people destroying the world because they swear that their God is coming back or that they are doing the work of their God. You are right, when you follow “his teachings” then you end up in a world of bloodshed.

SHELLI: “God does not MAKE anybody kill. God does not kill anyone.”

LOL! You can’t be serious? Have you even read the Bible? There are hundreds of examples of God making people kill and God killing people. What Bible are you reading? Are you reading the Kindergarten version with all the nice pictures and violence and sexuality removed?

SHELLI: “Those are Satan’s lies.”

So Satan wrote the Bible?

SHELLI: “People need to stop blaming God for everything and start taking responsibilities for their OWN actions.”

Here! Here! I agree. We need to stop blaming god and stop giving god credit where it is not do. People need to take responsibility for their own actions; good or bad. We need to smack Pat Robertson on the face when he blames God for 9/11 because God removed “the hand of protection” – instead we need to put the blame where it is supposed to be – on the faith-based terrorists that were doing their god’s bidding. We need to stop blaming god for saving a baby in a tornado when it was the physics and architecture of the building that saved the baby and killed the baby’s family. I’m with you on this one!

SHELLI: “If you have hate in your heart, you are NOT of God.”

Well, you just emptied out at least 50% of the churches in America if you insisted on that.

SHELLI: “So stop dwelling on the Old Testament stories of a vengeful, wrathful God who wanted to punish His unruly, evil children, and focus entirely on His loving guidelines for a happy, healthy, abundant life on this Earth.”

So I should forget about the evil actions of someone and only focus on the good they did? I should forget about the murderer and remember the time that he hugged his son before he killed his son? I should forget that the rapist raped hundreds of women and remember how much he loved his mother?

That is the most ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard anyone suggest. Christians have been trying to separate themselves from the OT God for a long time because they recognize the evil nature of their Bible-God in the OT.

SHELLI: “GOD IS LOVE!”

Unless you don’t love him back – then he’s everything but love.

SHELLI: “Start with the TEN COMMANDMENTS (which belong in the public schools), please!”

How do you think they will affect public schools? Christian schools still deal with crime – so if the Decalogue can’t even cure the ills of Christian schools then what makes you think it will cure public schools? It sounds to me like Christians aren’t accepting responsibility for their own actions. Instead of taking the blame for their evil children they want the school to take the blame because “it doesn’t post the Ten Commandments.” If Christians taught their children at home then there wouldn’t be a need for it in public schools. Right? Or are you suggesting that the Ten Commandments are powerless and meaningless?

SHELLI: “In conclusion, for those who do not believe that free will and divine intervention cannot both happen (again, limited thinking), they can.”

If you can step out of your limited thinking and prove it then we can talk. But if all you can offer is “they can” and stick your tongue out and go “nah nah boo boo” then you’re not going to even make a dent in rational thought.

SHELLI: “God does not directly interfere with our free will, but He can protect us from any harm or danger that may accompany any choices that we make.”

If he intervenes then he nulls and voids our free will. It is through free will that we get into those situations and free will that we get out. If he intervenes then we no longer have free will because we are no longer making the choices. Either we have free will or we don’t. If you admit that he can intervene and save our lives, then he is guilty of not doing it on many examples, such as 9/11.

SHELLI: “Example: a person who chooses to drive while intoxicated, ends up in a potentially fatal car accident, and walks away without a scratch (from a scientific point of view, he absolutely should have died as others in the exact same situation have in the past).”

The only thing this is a good example of is theistic nonsense and ignorance and the willingness to declare, “God did it,” without looking into the cause. Scientists in now way think that drunk drivers should have died. We know why they don’t die. They are so relaxed that their bodies are fluid-like during the physics of the car crash. It is a known fact that people that are relaxed escape car wrecks all the time. The drive will often be injured or dead, but the sleeping passengers come out unscathed. It has nothing to do with God and everything to do with muscle tension and relaxation during strenuous physics. Instead of throwing in “God did it” just because you don’t understand something, why don’t you actually do some research and educate yourself? You’ll be an atheist in no time.

 

Shelli Rebuttal #003:

You obviously do not understand Christianity at all. Trying to describe the peace of God to someone who has never experienced it is like describing a color to them that they have never seen. God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit–all the same thing. I cannot imagine living my life without God. I have overcome child abuse, serious depression, eating disorders, date rape, school taunting, and I am so much stronger and wiser than I have ever been. I forgive my father, and I still honor him by acknowledging that he is my father. However, I choose not to have a relationship with him. I forgive the guy who got drunk and sexually assaulted me, but I choose to be his friend no longer. I forgive the people who have made fun of me over the years because I am an intelligent, gifted person. Why harbor resentment and anger? There is no point. Without God’s grace, I could not have survived these ordeals. It is a miracle I am still here. So, please don’t call me ignorant of anything. Prayers have helped me a lot. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS. Imagine if someone in your family had gone through all this trauma. You fear the worst for them. What do you do if you cannot lean on a higher power than yourself? What kind of comfort can you possibly have if you have no assurance that there is a higher power than yourself in absolute control of everything? My life was IN DANGER! I was practically a DEAD WOMAN! I WAS SKIN AND BONES. MY SPIRIT WAS DYING. Unless you experience these kinds of things yourself, you have no idea about the true power of the Good Lord Above. His thoughts are not ours, his ways are not ours. This is a physical world where nothing or no one is going to be perfect. What IS perfect is God’s Kingdom in eternity. If Earth was perfect, Earth would be Heaven. There would be no need for a Savior. If you hear the gospel of Christ and do not accept it, you will be separated from God forever. As for me, I put God first in my life, I do not swear falsely by His name, I do not steal, I do not murder, I do not spread rumors, I do not have sex outside of marriage (and I am still single), I honor my father and mother, I do not envy what other people have (I focus on being the best I can be), and well, every day is a Sabbath for me (I am constantly worshipping the Lord, even as I work). I am blessed! Imagine that! Having gone through all that hell on Earth, I still consider myself truly blessed! THAT IS TRUE STRENGTH AND GRACE! I could be angry and bitter about life and diss God like a lot of people do, but I don’t! HE IS THE REASON WHY I AM HERE! There are so many other stories out there like this, too. Instead of slandering Christianity and the Bible, why don’t you investigate some of these stories and the people behind them? They will definitely give you a different perspective on life. There is a whole lot more to life than what you can see. You just can’t find reason with everything. Atheists have SO much more to learn. Get out of your cardboard boxes, stop lingering on the surface, and dive into the more profound truths beneath the surface. Make sure you have enough oxygen. It is a LONG way down. GOD BLESS.

NOTE: At this point Shelli’s emails increased from a 12 font to a bold 24 font. I’ll spare you the 24-font bold text.

I WILL NEVER, EVER BE AN ATHEIST! You are in the minority in this country. This is “one nation under God”, and that is how it will always be! Regarding your comment about my “religion prozac”, medicine may heal the body but not the soul. It takes a hell of a lot more to fix a broken spirit. Unless you have been that low, you can’t even imagine what it is like. So I find that comment really offensive. Christianity is a “walk with the Lord”. Plain and simple. You will face your day of judgment when you leave this place. Believe me, I wouldn’t want to be in your shoes. God Bless you. You need it.

By the way, who officiates at an atheist’s wedding (2 words that never should go together, like gay priest), the mailman? It isn’t a real marriage if there is no man of the cloth to perform the ceremony, uniting a man and woman in HOLY matrimony. Otherwise, we would all be married to our first grade crushes when we “played wedding” in our backyards. How does it feel to know your marriage is just a piece of paper given to you by the state to acknowledge that you just said a couple words to the other person, agreeing to be his or her spouse? What a joke. If you are not a believer in the Creator, don’t make a mockery of a sacrament. If there is no God in your life, there is no marriage. Husbands and wives are united to serve the Lord and each other and to train up their children in His ways. That is what the Bible says. Also, on a different note, I will chalk up my paranormal experiences to be a figment of my very active “limited” imagination. I guess everyone’s bedroom door just opens by itself in front of their very eyes when no one is around…..and all windows are closed. Well, rational thought tells me, “Hey, the wood was once a tree, and trees are alive.” That explains it! LMAO.

What about strange footsteps when no one is around? How about an invisible tap on the shoulder? Since my grandfather died, my grandmother’s phone rings once every night at the same time (around 2 A.M.) Explain it……. There are countless other stories like this out there. So are we all just looney….and you atheists aren’t?

 

Response to Shelli #003:

Everything you have said reinforces the idea that some people have a psychological need for religious belief. That’s okay – it’s what you need and that helps to stabilize you. Religion is your Prozac and I support you in your quest for stability: even if it means belief in a god to give you a warm fuzzy.

Most people that proselytize to me seem to be ex-drug addicts, ex-abuse victims, ex-rape victims that have “seen god’s love.”

That’s not a coincidence. These people NEED religion in their lives to give them psychological balance and to feel needed and welcome. That’s okay.

I wish you the best in your religious Prozac.

SHELLI: “I WILL NEVER, EVER BE AN ATHEIST!”

Actually you were an atheist when you were a baby. You lacked a belief in gods. It wasn’t until you were indoctrinated into religion by your parents and peers that you stopped being an atheist. So you can drop the “never” from your statement. You need religion in your life for stabilization and that’s okay. More power to you.

SHELLI: “You are in the minority in this country.”

Yes, we are one minority in this country. Christianity is losing ground every year in America as immigrants bring their own religions into this country and make us a truly pluralistic society. Hinduism, Paganism, Islam, atheism, Buddhism, Unitarian Universalism, Judaism, and many others are on the rise. As of last year atheist comprised 14% of the American population, which is roughly 27 million atheists in the United States. When you add the other religions, then Christianity is now just above 60%. You’re losing your ranks and may not be the majority much longer. I have to admit that I look forward to the day when the pluralistic nature of religion in America truly makes it a religiously free nation and separation of church and state is no longer under attack by the “majority mob” that is called Christianity.

SHELLI: “This is “one nation under God”, and that is how it will always be!”

Well, that’s been the official motto since the 1950’s, anyway. Can you please quote me the part in the United States Constitution that says that?

SHELLI: “Regarding your comment about my “religion prozac”, medicine may heal the body but not the soul.”

You obviously let your anger prevent you from understanding what I was saying. Instead of taking medicine, you are using religion to accomplish the same thing. You are using “religious Prozac” instead of taking pills. You are using religion to calm you down and to appease your fears and anxieties. You are not alone. If that is what makes you feel better, then more power to you.

SHELLI: “Unless you have been that low, you can’t even imagine what it is like.”

I’ve been low and I’ve known people that have been that low and lower. That is why I hold no animosity against those that use religion as a form of “spiritual Prozac” (is that better?). They need it and it helps them cope – so, as I said before, more power to them.

SHELLI: “So I find that comment really offensive.”

That’s probably because you misunderstood what I was saying, but nonetheless, I apologize for offending you. You are using religion as a means to cope with your past bad experiences and dreadful life that you have led. I’m sorry that you had to go through all that. It’s a shame that such things have to happen to people. If you need religion to cope with those past experiences, then I support you. Instead of seeking a doctor and taking Prozac, you are using religion as your Prozac. You are using religion to help you deal with your past issues and events.

SHELLI: “You will face your day of judgment when you leave this place.”

Yeah, I’m going to have a lot of explaining to do to Zeus. He’s really going to be pissed that we think he’s nothing more than a mythological creature. Of course I’ll really be bummed if I have to explain myself to Zoroaster. Or even worse, what if I have to explain myself to Mithras? Mithras is even worse than your Bible-God!

SHELLI: “By the way, who officiates at an atheist’s wedding (2 words that never should go together, like gay priest), the mailman?” [sic]

He’s called a Justice of the Peace, and is an official representative of the state in which you are getting married.

SHELLI: “It isn’t a real marriage if there is no man of the cloth to perform the ceremony, uniting a man and woman in HOLY matrimony.”

A wedding and a religious wedding are two separate things. Civilizations were uniting couples to live together before Christian marriage came around. Pagans married, Buddhists married, Confucians married. They may not have called it “marriage,” but the concept was the same – uniting two people that loved each other to live together and raise children together. The idea of monogamy was viewed as better for the society. Religion hijacked the concept after it was developed by societies.

SHELLI: “Otherwise, we would all be married to our first grade crushes when we “played wedding” in our backyards.”

That’s pretty funny considering that Christianity was one of the biggest proponents of marrying girls after their first menstrual cycle so that they could “go forth and bear fruit.”

SHELLI: “How does it feel to know your marriage is just a piece of paper given to you by the state to acknowledge that you just said a couple words to the other person, agreeing to be his or her spouse?”

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you have the same piece of paper. It doesn’t matter if you get married in the church or not, you still have to have a marriage license. You can get married in the church and it isn’t legal unless you have the marriage license. The state has granted authority to some ministers to officiate the license, but most couples have to apply for their license and present it to their minister before the wedding takes place. The ministerial wedding has no legal foundation on its own. You cannot do your taxes as a married couple unless you have a marriage license. So if you think that the piece of paper is a joke, then it only displays your ignorance of the subject matter.

SHELLI: “If you are not a believer in the Creator, don’t make a mockery of a sacrament.”

Why not? I have every right to mock it, poke fun of it, ridicule it, criticize it and otherwise show it for the silliness that it is. Just as you have every right to do the same to atheism. The difference between us is that I respect your right to ridicule atheism.

SHELLI: “If there is no God in your life, there is no marriage.”

Again, this shows your ignorance of the subject. Civilizations were uniting couples long before religion hijacked the uniting process and made a religious ceremony out of it. Do you recognize marriages of other religions? Do you recognize Hindu weddings or Jewish weddings? Or do just Christian weddings count?

SHELLI: “Husbands and wives are united to serve the Lord and each other and to train up their children in His ways.”

That is the Christian belief, yes. Fortunately for the rest of society, Christian dogma and doctrine cannot be forced on everyone else. We have the secular and non-religious constitution to thank for that.

SHELLI: “I guess everyone’s bedroom door just opens by itself in front of their very eyes when no one is around…..and all windows are closed. Well, rational thought tells me, “Hey, the wood was once a tree, and trees are alive.” That explains it! LMAO.”

You can explain it anyway you want, but until you have rationally investigated the phenomenon and eliminated all other possibilities, then you are just chalking it up to “god did it” or “ghosts did it” without any reason to do so. Doors close all the times by themselves – it doesn’t take a breeze to do it. Vibrations from passing vehicles can cause doors to close. A shift in a house’s foundation can cause doors that used to stand ajar to suddenly start closing on their own. Did you even investigate any of these possibilities or did you jump immediately on the supernatural bandwagon?

SHELLI: “There are countless other stories like this out there. So are we all just looney [sic]….and you atheists aren’t?”

No, you’re not all just loony. What everyone does is immediately jump to the supernatural explanation without bothering to even investigate any other possibility. There are many unexplained things – but nothing is unexplainable. Most people don’t understand that concept. Most of the unexplained events in my life have been explained since I actually started to investigate them and look for explanations within physics and the natural world. Most people would rather be lazy and chalk them up to ghosts and god. Suit yourself if mental laziness is your forte.

Shelli Rebuttal #004:

NOTE: Shelli’s email remained at a bold 24 font.

BLAIR: “You can explain it anyway you want, but until you have rationally investigated the phenomenon and eliminated all other possibilities, then you are just chalking it up to “god did it” or “ghosts did it” without any reason to do so. Doors close all the times by themselves – it doesn’t take a breeze to do it. Vibrations from passing vehicles can cause doors to close. A shift in a house’s foundation can cause doors that used to stand ajar to suddenly start closing on their own. Did you even investigate any of these possibilities or did you jump immediately on the supernatural bandwagon?”

I said my door opened, not closed, by itself. My bedroom is on the second floor, and we live on a quiet street. It opened slowly as if someone was pushing it lightly. It didn’t open a crack. It opened halfway.

Regarding your comment about my “religion prozac”, medicine may heal the body but not the soul.

BLAIR: “You obviously let your anger prevent you from understanding what I was saying. Instead of taking medicine, you are using religion to accomplish the same thing. You are using “religious Prozac” instead of taking pills. You are using religion to calm you down and to appease your fears and anxieties. You are not alone. If that is what makes you feel better, then more power to you.”

I have been on Prozac, Clonopin, Zyprexa, Buspar, and Risperdal. Now I have been on Celexa for a year. I have seen doctors since I was 19, and pills just were never enough. Like I said, they heal my “chemical imbalances”, but it does not heal the hurt I still feel deep down in my soul. I am not an angry person. I just can’t believe so many people out there are so blind to the love and presence of God. True devoted Christians are the nicest people you will ever meet because the character of Jesus just shines through them. It is for real. I support the Franciscan Missions, St. Matthew’s Churches, Life-Study Fellowship, ASPCA, the US Humane Society, Defenders of Wildlife, World Wildlife Fund, and PETA….all on limited income while I have been recovering from years of emotional and spiritual hell. I am an actress and writer, too. Before I die, the whole world will know my name, and they will remember me as a gifted, compassionate person…a humanitarian. I possess a strength and grace that can only come from one source…God. Not “Bible God”, just God. I am waiting for the day when an atheist actually goes out and makes such blessed contributions to the world. Usually, they are too busy spitting at it and everyone in it….especially Christians who put other’s needs in front of their own. We don’t deserve that.

 

Response to Shelli #004:

SHELLI: “I said my door opened, not closed, by itself. My bedroom is on the second floor, and we live on a quiet street. It opened slowly as if someone was pushing it lightly. It didn’t open a crack. It opened halfway.”

Opened or closed it doesn’t matter. Doors creep for very natural reasons. Your unwillingness to investigate a rational cause and to jump on the supernatural is just another indication of your need for religion. You need it – you need the simple answer and reassurance that comes with believing that fairy tales are true.

SHELLI: “True devoted Christians are the nicest people you will ever meet because the character of Jesus just shines through them.”

Actually, in my experience it is the “true devoted Christians” that are the nastiest people I’ve ever known. It is the moderates that are friendly. I find this to be the case in every religion. The Fundamentalists are the troublemakers, the haters, the terrorists and all those other nasty things. It is the “true devoted Christian” that blows up abortion clinics and assassinates abortion providers. It is “true devoted Christians” that beat up homosexuals and sometimes kill them. It is “true devoted Christians” that harass non-Christians and threaten them and plant crosses in their yards.

SHELLI: “Before I die, the whole world will know my name, and they will remember me as a gifted, compassionate person…a humanitarian.”

Obviously we’ve reached a point beyond just a need for religion. We’re dealing with a need for recognition and sympathy. You didn’t get it from me and so you’re pissed off. That’s fine. Stay on your meds and I wish you the best in recovering. Based on your past, your “testimony” and what you say I can assure that you are, indeed, a “true devoted Christian.”

SHELLI: “We don’t deserve that.”

Not all of you do – but many of you do.

Shelli Rebuttal #005:

NOTE: Shelli’s email remained at 24 font.

BLAIR: “Actually, in my experience it is the “true devoted Christians” that are the nastiest people I’ve ever known. It is the moderates that are friendly. I find this to be the case in every religion. The Fundamentalists are the troublemakers, the haters, the terrorists and all those other nasty things. It is the “true devoted Christian” that blows up abortion clinics and assassinates abortion providers. It is “true devoted Christians” that beat up homosexuals and sometimes kill them. It is “true devoted Christians” that harass non-Christians and threaten them and plant crosses in their yards.”

True, devoted Christians do not kill, hate, or do anything that you have mentioned. We follow the Ten Commandments to the best of our ability. People who kill and hate are not Christians, though they may claim to be. They are just evil and have a distorted view of Christianity. I don’t need your sympathy or anyone else’s. I just want to serve the Lord by doing good to all. I know what I have experienced in life. I know what the truth is. If you don’t, you will find out eventually. All through my life, people have let me down, but God never has. Face it, you have no concept of what the meaning of life is, and no rationality of science will ever explain why we came into existence in the first place. Go chew on that one for a while. People in this world have to choose to be good, or evil will prevail. It certainly won’t be God’s fault. It will be ours alone. That is why we have free will. Until someone explains why the universe began, why our bodies are so intricately designed, why our organs communicate so well, why there is such a diversity of species, why miracles happen…..then I will believe that life was all just a big random “accident”. It just isn’t rational to believe that life created itself.

  • Charles Manson—Atheist
  • Columbine Shooters—Atheists
  • 9/11 Terrorists—Islamics
  • Adolf Hitler—Atheist
  • Czars of Russia—Atheists
  • Josef Stalin—Atheist
  • Benito Mussolini—Atheist
  • Fidel Castro—Atheist
  • Saddam Hussein—Islamic
  • Osama Bin Laden—Islamic
  • Timothy McVeigh—Atheist
  • Ted Bundy—Atheist

Where are all the Christians you said who have committed heinous crimes of murder? I can’t think of any practicing Jesus-loving Christians who have been serial killers or rapists. Face it, the worst villains in human history have been anything but Christian.

Just out of curiosity, do you actually tell little children that there is no God or Heaven and that they are going to end up in a cold box six feet under? That is just cruel…and a lie. What would an atheist even say to a terminally ill child lying in the hospital, taking his or her last breaths of life? I think the last thing anyone would want is an atheist at their bedside. I have actually visited an atheist chatroom and a Christian chatroom. Here is what I learned from observing the conversations in both groups:

  • Atheists swear a lot and bash other people’s beliefs…especially Christians’.
  • Atheists seem angry and bitter about life in general.
  • They talk about sex a lot.
  • Atheists say offering prayers for them is hatred.
  • Christians have very positive outlooks on life and show genuine compassion for others, even atheists.
  • They do not swear, curse, etc.
  • They share inspirational scriptures from the Bible that are very uplifting.
  • Christians offer prayers for everyone, which is the best gift you can give to someone.

Simply put, I felt much happier in the Christian chatroom, and I was almost in tears in the atheist one.

Your actions don’t make you a Christian. It is what is in your heart. There is also nothing more precious than a little child pointing to his or her heart and saying, “Jesus is right here.”

GOD BLESS :)

 

Response to Shelli #005:

I’m not sure where you are getting your information from, but we’ll clear up your mistakes. First of all, I never played the “guilty by association” card as you have done. The reason I didn’t play it is because we are all “guilty by association.” For every belief, religion, creed, race, ethnicity, philosophy, etc, there is someone out there in history past that has done bad things as a representative of that particular component. That doesn’t mean it was the driving force or the reason for the heinous activity, though.

For example, while Pol Pot was an atheist, he wasn’t killing anyone “for atheism.” However, during the Crusades, the murderous hordes were specifically killing people “for Christianity.”

But, I’m not going to play the guilty by association card as you have done, because your pile stinks just as much.

However, I did want to clear up a few of your errors.

Adolf Hitler was a Christian. He was a practicing Lutheran. He wanted to destroy the hierarchy of the church because he thought it was too liberal. Hitler wanted the church to be more literal in its views of the Bible. Hitler thought that by killing the Jews he was finishing the work of Christ. That is why he also killed homosexuals – because the Bible said they were an abomination.

Timothy McVeigh was not an atheist, either. He was involved in a state militia that embraces Christianity. He prayed the night before he bombed the federal building and prayed after he was captured, as was reported by the correctional officers and the minister that visited him in prison.

Okay, what the hell, since you’ve thrown out the guilty by association card – I’ll throw it out too.

  • Eric Rudolph — Christian
  • Hitler — Lutheran Christian
  • The Menendez Brothers — Christian
  • Salem Townspeople — Christian
  • Conquistadors — Christian
  • Crusaders — Christian
  • Inquisition — Christian
  • Susan Smith — Christian
  • Texas mother that drowned her children — Christian
  • Army of God — Christian
  • Christian Identity — Christian
  • KKK — Christian
  • Militia — Christian

The list goes on of course. That is why we don’t play the “guilty by association” card – because we can all be found guilty by such. That is why we judge not by the actions of the past, but by the theology itself. Is the theology sound? When things of the past come up, they come up in a theological context: What about the theology caused such events?

Of course any time someone points out the heinous acts of Christians then you just say, “They weren’t REAL Christians” or “They weren’t TRUE Christians.” How do you know that they weren’t the real and true ones and that you’re not the fraud? After all, the Bible is full of acts committed in the name of God and Jesus that are equally and more heinous than any man has done.

A terminally ill child that is lying in the hospital will hear from an atheist what that child wants to hear. If the child believes he or she is going to heaven, then the atheist has the moral upstanding to let that child die thinking just that.

When my children asked about death they were told what everyone believes. They were told about Christian beliefs, Islamic beliefs, Hindu beliefs, Buddhist beliefs and more, as well as the scientific facts. Once they have all the information then they can make an educated decision on their own.

You know, one thing you told me a while ago is that because of my interest in Christianity that I must be seeking Jesus. Yet, what I’m reading from you is that you have a very keen interest in atheism. You visit atheism web pages, you enter atheism chat rooms and you engage in conversations with atheists. Sounds to me like you’re asking the right questions. You’ll be an atheist in no time.

Shelli Rebuttal #006:

NOTE: Shelli’s email are now coming in at a bolded 36 font with more and more ALL CAPS.

I WiLL NEVER BE AN ATHEIST, AND I AM NOT THE FRAUD. I FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS…..NOT MEN. Those horrible people that committed such heinous crimes were not Christians. They are the frauds. How can you even try to rationalize what Hitler did? He was a madman. He was a Christian that wanted to kill Jews? Well, I guess he really WAS a fraud because Jesus is a Jew. Therefore, if he hated Jews, he hated Jesus. That means he was not a Christian. Jesus Christ preached love and respect for all mankind. That is the truth, and I am sticking to it.

And you think I will be an atheist how??????? I am no fool.

 

Response to Shelli #006:

When you start emailing me in all caps and 36-point font, I realize that your emotions have gotten the better of you and you can no longer engage in intelligent conversation.

I wish you the best of luck in your efforts to end your psychological issues and emotional scars from your past. Whether you do this via modern medicine or religion is of no interest to me – as long as you achieve what you want to achieve.

The best of luck,
Blair Scott

NOTE: It was too bad that I had to terminate the “debate.” It was getting entertaining, but she was obviously losing her cool and control. If what she was saying was true about her mental illness, I felt it better to terminate the “debate” – it was the moral thing to do.

 

Shelli Rebuttal #007:

NOTE: Shelli contacted me again out of the blue with this one. What the heck, let’s see where this one goes…

Mr. Scott, I pose a more interesting question for you and all others out there who claim that “religion” is the cause of the world’s problems. Why are MOST of the crimes out there perpetrated by men? Why are men (or boys) shooting up our schools, blowing up our buildings with bombs and planes, forming heinous gangs like the Ku Klux Klan, murdering abortion doctors, torturing our precious animals, teaching children how to be terrorists, starting world wars, murdering homosexuals, raping women, kidnapping and sexually molesting children, distributing pornography, executing prisoners, polluting our oceans with toxic chemicals, and exterminating endangered species???

When you really get down to the bottom of it, the world would be a much more peaceful place if all the men just vanished off the face of the earth.

Religion vs Men
What is the real problem?
Hold on….did not men create religion in the first place?
Seek Jesus Christ….NOT religion.
Amen.

 

Response to Shelli #007:

SHELLI: “Why are MOST of the crimes out there perpetrated by men?”

Since women have been “liberated,” the numbers of crimes committed by women are now on the rise significantly. Most states have had to build larger prisons to house their female inmates (I work with the Department of Corrections, so I can attest to this personally). Perhaps the issue is not sexuality or even sexual orientation, but more importantly, an issue of access and equality? Or for that matter, why is it that most crimes seem to be committed by African-Americans? Perhaps you are asking the wrong question?

Of course I realize what you are trying to do. While admirable, that’s about all it is – it’s still a straw man and has no bearing on the issue at hand.

SHELLI: “Why are men (or boys) shooting up our schools…”

Because the Christian kids are picking on them and being bullies? The football team that prays before each game is the same team that beats the kid up and teases him. Of course it’s interesting to note that today’s most notorious school shooters, those from Columbine, attended church. Hmm…

SHELLI: “…blowing up our buildings with bombs and planes…”

Religion does that and female suicide bombers are on the rise. Only a belief in an afterlife could motivate someone to commit suicide in such a manner, and that stems from religion and religious fundamentalism. There are no atheist suicide bombers.

SHELLI: “…forming heinous gangs like the Ku Klux Klan…”

You mean the Christian hate group? You do know that the KKK is a Christian organization, don’t you? You do know that the KKK uses the same phrase that you do, “Jesus is a relationship, not a religion?” The largest hate groups in America are Christian organizations.

SHELLI: “…murdering abortion doctors…”

Christians do that, too. The only reason ever given by Christian terrorists for blowing up abortion clinics and assassinating abortion providers is… the Bible and Jesus.

SHELLI: “…torturing our precious animals…”

I’m not sure what context you’re referring to here. If you mean through animal testing, then that’s not a crime, so it doesn’t apply. If you mean through sacrifices, etc, then it is religion that calls for the sacrificing of animals on an altar. The Bible is full of not just examples of animal sacrifice, but specific instructions on how to do it – on how to make an “odor pleasing to the Lord.”

SHELLI: “…teaching children how to be terrorists…”

Again, you have to blame religion on this one. There are no atheist suicide bombers or terrorists. There are Christian terrorists, Islamic terrorists, Hindu terrorists, Jewish terrorists, and others, but no atheist terrorists. Terrorism is a faith-based initiative.

SHELLI: “…starting world wars…”

Most conflicts around the world revolved around religion or a creed that became religious in nature (such as fascism, for example). The issue is brainwashing and indoctrination – keeping the flock in line. Of course the main reason that men are the cause of wars is because women were not in positions of power to start any. Of course we can’t forget Joan of Arc, right?

SHELLI: “…murdering homosexuals…”

Christians are doing that. Muslims are doing that. Religion is doing that – it is religious bigotry that causes such violence against homosexuals and lesbians. Of course I would remind you that there have been several instances of lesbians being beat up by Christians girls, especially in locker rooms in schools.

SHELLI: “…raping women…”

Funny, but you’re 20 times more likely to be raped in the United States than any other country in the world. Supposedly this is a “Christian nation,” which is puritanical in nature when it comes to human sexuality, and yet our rape instances are astronomical. Go where human sexuality is open and the immoral puritanical attitude is nothing more than a memory of the Dark Ages, the rape numbers are extremely low. When I lived in Italy we never heard of rapes and child molestation from the local Italians (even with all the priests and bishops walking around Catholicville). When we did hear about it, it was usually an American that did it.

There have been instances of women raping women, and even women raping men. But in a sexually repressed, puritanical society, one will see an increase in rapes. One way to discourage that is to legalize prostitution; it’s a way to decrease testosterone overbuild.

SHELLI: “…kidnapping and sexually molesting children…”

You mean like Catholic priests and pastors? The last eight documented cases in Alabama have been molestations of children by priests and pastors in churches around the state.

SHELLI: “…distributing pornography…”

Pornography is not a crime, so I’m not sure how it fits in your statement. According to Playboy Magazine, the majority of rentals of pornography videos are by women, not men. Go figure…

SHELLI: “…executing prisoners…”

The largest supporter of the death penalty is the religious right. The Bible is clear about stoning people to death and the phrase “eye for an eye” is a popular one from that violent book. The execution of prisoners in Texas is practically a religious experience for them down there. Christianity and other religions have pushed the execution of prisoners for a long time. Ironic that Christianity pushes the execution of prisoners, considering they always complain about Christians being executed as prisoners during the reign of Rome (remember the lions?).

SHELLI: “…polluting our oceans with toxic chemicals…”

Maybe you should ask Jerry Falwell this question. He has said repeatedly that Christians should not concern themselves with the environment. Why would he say that? He says it because the belief that Jesus is coming back makes caring for the earth irrelevant. Why care for the Earth if Jesus is coming back to make the place peaceful for 3,000 years? Why bother tending the oceans and forests if the rapture is going to happen any minute now? This form of Armageddonomics has led to where we are today: a planet festering with people that don’t care about because they are waiting for their messiah to return. Did you know that according to religious polls and environmental polls, that the majority of environmentalists are not Christians? Most environmentalists are spiritualists (New Age, Wicca, Buddhism, etc).

SHELLI: “…and exterminating endangered species?”

See the answer to the above. Why care about endangered species if Jesus is coming back? Again, most conservationists are not Christians – they tend to be those that are in-tune with Mother Nature and worshipers of earth-centered religions such as Wicca.

SHELLI: “When you really get down to the bottom of it, the world would be a much more peaceful place if all the men just vanished off the face of the earth.”

Of course that would only last for about 100 years before the species died off from the lack of sperm.

Men were in power for the last eons, so they were the ones making the decisions. Now that women are gaining equality worldwide, you will begin to see more and more of these things attributed to women. It’s not an issue of aggressiveness based on the sexes, but an issue of power availability. Why do you think all the leaders that are mentioned in the Bible are men? The Bible says that women are to be subservient to men and to not talk in church. Do you follow that rule? If you’ve ever talked in church or shown your hair in church then you’re going to Hell, because you’re an abomination unto the Lord. Sucks to be a woman in Christianity… where women’s rights are still an ongoing issue.

The real issue is religion, either deified or not. You can call it a “relationship” all you want, but the blood spilt in the name of that relationship is measured in tons, not pints, or ounces.

Perhaps you can clear something up for me? The Bible Belt, which is the most religious section of the United States, is also the most troubled section of the United States. The Bible Belt has the highest murder rate in the country, the highest rape and molestation rates, the highest divorce rates, the highest high school dropout rates, the highest infant mortality rates, the highest drug use rates, the highest teen pregnancy rates, and the highest misdemeanor crime rates.

Why do you think that is?

Shelli Rebuttal #008:

NOTE: My last response to Shelli got me eight different emails. I’ve combined them all into one rebuttal and I responded to all of them as one email, so this one is going to be a little long.

Email #001 (in 18 font)

Mr. Scott, let me put it to you this way. If a person does not walk in the ways of Jesus Christ, he or she is not a Christian. Period. Have you ever heard of wolves in sheep’s clothing? That would classify the KKK and others who claim that they are killing in the name of Jesus. Jesus never commanded anyone to murder….but to love and respect your fellow man. It is that simple. I don’t know why people nowadays have to make Christianity such a complex issue. Believe me, America is NOT a Christian nation whatsoever. No way. I wish it was. If America was a Christian nation, there would be no murder (including abortion), rape, adultery, etc. You want to see a poster Christian woman, just look at me. I don’t drink, don’t smoke, don’t do drugs, don’t have sex, and I support wonderful charities:

  • World Wildlife Fund
  • National Wildlife Federation
  • Defenders of Wildlife
  • ASPCA
  • PETA
  • US Humane Society
  • Guiding Eyes For the Blind
  • Franciscan Mission Associates
  • Eastern Paralyzed Veterans Association
  • North Shore Animal League America
  • Natiional Humane Education Society
  • International Fund For Animal Welfare
  • The Nature Conservancy
  • Life-Study Fellowship
  • St. Matthew’s Churches

My love and kindness comes from the Lord. I commit all my acts of love to the Lord. I give in His Holy Name. There is no such thing as murder in the name of Jesus. That is an abomination of everything that He stands for. Those kind of people are driven by Satan. False prophets. Wolves in sheep’s clothing. Going to church does NOT make you a Christian. It is the love and compassion that dwells in the human heart. Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ….not a religion. Religion is man-made. Christianity is the only faith that is not man-made. Religions are ungodly. My friend, you need to re-read the New Testament. There is no such thing as “an eye for an eye” in Christianity. I feel sorry for you that you think prostitution should be legalized. That is an ugly profession that inevitably spreads disease and destruction to everyone. You know what suppresses sexual desires and sin? Focusing on the Lord Jesus Christ AT ALL TIMES! Take your eyes away from Him, you will most likely sin (Catholic priests). By the way, what is this about not talking in church? Everytime I have been to a church, I have seen nothing but joyful, smiling faces engrossed in pleasant conversations. It is great to be a Christian woman! I feel so free and at peace! It must really suck to be an atheist because whether you know it or not, you have no assurance of anything. You are looking at the world through a cardboard box with peep holes. You aren’t seeing the big picture. There is so much evidence of God’s presence, how can you possibly miss it? A fool says in his heart there is no God. God Bless you, Mr. Scott. Remember to put others’ needs before your own. Support as many charities as you can. We are here to serve, not to be served. You become rich by giving. So whether you live on 200 dollars a year or 100,000, GIVE. The Lord will bless you for it. What you give will be returned to you hundredfold. AMEN.

Email #2

Oh, I forgot. Just wanted to remind you that the two Columbine shooters were both atheists. They asked Cassie Bernall if she believed in God or not. She said ‘yes’, and they blew her head off. God Bless her precious soul.

Email #3

And as for torturing animals, I am mainly referring to the horrible people who are randomly killing stray dogs and cats, even precious household pets. These perpetrators are always men, and these ARE crimes punishable by law. I should know. I am an ASPCA and Humane Society member. We are also working to stop animal testing COMPLETELY. It is a heinous, needless practice.

Email #4

Accountability is up to the age of 12. Then you are responsible for your actions in the eyes of God.

Email #5

Believe me, Mr. Scott, your answers are far more entertaining than anyone else’s. I hope you go to the movies a lot because you will soon be seeing a lot of me. I never had a mental illness. I have an autistic spectrum disorder called Asperger’s Syndrome, which incurs such symptoms as depression. Do a search on the Internet, and you will find evidence that we are very highly intelligent and have ultra-sensitivity. Basically, we have sensory abilities far beyond the average person. We have a superior sense of hearing and of touch. I cannot attend concerts because of the noise. I don’t like the feel of baggy clothing, so I am always wearing tank tops and shorts around the house. No socks ever. So, I can tell you for certain that there is another dimension in existence beyond this one. Again, I have never had a mental illness. I am not schizo, manic, or whatever. I am a perfectly logical and sensible person. This is not a laughable condition. It originates in childhood. No known cause. I am kind of offended that you were mocking me on your website. Do you normally make fun of “autistic” people who know a heck of a lot more than you ever will?

NOTE: email switches to 36-font at this point)

OH, AND I OFTEN WRITE IN CAPS AT 36 FONT BECAUSE I THINK IT IS FUN. SOMETIMES I DO IT IN DIFFERENT COLORS.

(end 36-font)

So, stop analyzing everything about me. It is, however, very entertaining to see how “OFF” you are on just about everything. If you are so smart, scientific, and able to read people with that wacky atheist mind of yours, describe what I look like.

Email #6

I am also offended that you were entertained by my accounts of being raped, abused, and suffering from eating disorders. Typical atheist. Arrogant and sarcastic, always getting your kicks out of mocking nice people, especially Christians. There is this thing in Christianity called being humble. We admit to everyone that we don’t know all the answers, but we trust God anyway. It is called faith. You atheists think there is no higher intelligence out there than man, and you claim to know everything. Science is all speculation and proving one’s theories. What you can’t find a logical answer to, you make up. There were no witnesses to the creation of the universe. At least people witnessed Jesus. Stop the arrogance, and ask God for a new purpose in your life. “Pride goeth before destruction.” “You reap what you sow.”

P.S. A new whale species was just discovered. How did science miss that??? Remember the coelacanth? Fisherman caught one when it was believed to be extinct for millions of years. Even the giant panda was believed to be a myth until they were discovered. So, how can you say for certain that there is no God and call people crazy when they have experienced evidence of an afterlife, even though you have not? Apparently, they have seen the truth, and you haven’t. There have been so many reports of people being miraculously cured of terminal illnesses, and the doctors even confirmed that medically, there had been no hope for their recovery. I am talking about people who were stricken with cancer all over their bodies, and once they were prayed for, immediately began to heal. Again, do some research on these accounts.

Email #7

You said:

BLAIR: “I do not hate theists. I am a firm proponent of the Constitution of the United States.”

Then you say:

BLAIR: “There is only one time that I hate theists and that is when theists use their theistic beliefs as a means to justify the start of war, spread hatred, spill blood or trample on the rights of others. The theists that I hate are the theists that kill abortion clinic doctors. The theists that I hate are the theists that kill anything or anyone and say they did it because their God told them to. The theists that I hate are the theists that use the blind faith of the masses to create havoc, chaos and bloodshed.”

NOTE: Email switches to 24-font

Why do you say you don’t hate theists, and then a few sentences later, you say you do?

You either hate, or you don’t. Which is it? Proves my theory that atheists are haters. As a Christian, I absolutely do NOT like sin at all. However, I still love the people. We are taught to love our enemies but not necessarily what they do. Personally, I don’t think love and hate can exist inside the same heart.

(end 24 font)

Email #8

You said:

BLAIR: “Marriage has nothing to do with God, even if the ceremony does for a lot of people. Marriage is about two people that love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together in a monogamous relationship. The theistic view of no sex before marriage and no cohabitation prior to marriage actually sets marriage up to fail. How do you know that you can live with someone for the rest of your life if you have no experience in living with them or experience in sexuality with them? No matter what theists say – sex and sexuality are a major part of any marriage.”

Studies have shown that premarital cohabitation and sex increase the likelihood of a divorce. When you fall in love with someone, it is unconditional…which means that you still love the other person no matter how many bad habits they have or how mediocre they are in bed. Those are petty things that can be improved. As I always say, “Don’t wait for the one you think you can live with, but wait for the one you cannot live without.”

That is true love….something atheists cannot even comprehend. You have demonstrated that by your own foolish words.Another note to you: Multiple partners before marriage can lead to serious emotional scars that may very well be carried into the relationship with your spouse and may ultimately destroy it. Whereas, a virgin will have no such “ghosts of past lovers” hovering over her or his head. That is a major plus for the relationship! It is easier to split with someone that you haven’t slept with than with one that you have. Sex was designed by God for the marriage bed only. It all makes sense. Visit some distraught pregnant teens sometime who do not know who their babies’ fathers are. Think of all the pain suffered by them, their families, friends, and future children. A person who waits till marriage will never have to deal with that kind of mayhem and heartbreak. The children are then at least given a chance of a stable homelife with a mother and a father under one roof and committed to each other.

You said:

BLAIR: “Christianity puts unfair expectations on marriage for Christian couples. Don’t talk to each other, pray to God and he will solve your marriage strife. Is that really sound advice for married couples? Does prayer end our differences and create peace in a marriage? Nope.”

Where did you get that bullcocky? Christian couples are always talking and discussing their problems. I say, “The family that prays together stays together.” So you are saying that all the couples in marriage counseling are atheists??? Nope.

You said:

BLAIR: “This of course brings up an issue for Christian doctrine. If the only way to heaven is to hear about and accept Jesus as your personal savior, then children that die do not go to heaven. Stillborns, mentally retarded, feral children, and isolated societies where missionaries have not reached are all going to hell.”

You are nuts. Children are the innocent ones. Jesus said, “Verily I say to you, whosoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.” Apparently, you skipped some important verses in the Bible that answer those questions.

 

Response to Shelli #008:

SHELLI: “If a person does not walk in the ways of Jesus Christ, he or she is not a Christian.”

That’s something Christians tend to say in order to dismiss the actions of other Christians. The bottom line is that the Bible is clear on what one must do in order to get to Heaven: accept Christ as your Lord and Savior and acknowledge his sacrifice on the cross. That’s it. If you accept those two things then you are a Christian. Christians like you can try to twist it all you want to dismiss the actions of your brethren, but it is to no avail because we see through your smokescreen and see Christianity for what it is.

SHELLI: “Have you ever heard of wolves in sheep’s clothing? That would classify the KKK and others who claim that they are killing in the name of Jesus.”

The “No True Scotsman” joke is banging around in my head right now. The KKK, Christian Identity, and Army of God (just to name three of many) are proud of their Christianity and they fit the criteria of Christians – they accept Christ as their Lord and Savior (within the Trinity) and acknowledge the sacrifice he made on the cross for their sins and the sins of mankind. That’s all that is required. They quote the Bible to back up their views and terrorist actions.

SHELLI: “I don’t know why people nowadays have to make Christianity such a complex issue.”

There’s a simple reason for that – it is. The NT is so full of contradictions and inconsistencies that it can’t be anything but complex. The majority of Christians don’t know the first thing about the faith that they profess belief in. Did you know that over 70% of Christians polled said that Rev. Billy Graham gave the Sermon on the Mount?

Most Christians have no idea how the Bible came to be or why the Sabbath is on Sunday (the day of the Sun not son). It’s pathetic how little Christians know about their religion and faith. Of course if they knew all of those things they wouldn’t be Christians any more – they’d be atheists or at least deists if they couldn’t shake the psychological crutch of a need for an invisible man in the sky.

SHELLI: “Believe me, America is NOT a Christian nation whatsoever. […]If America was a Christian nation, there would be no murder (including abortion), rape, adultery, etc.”

You are correct, America is not a Christian nation, but it is a nation that is composed mostly of Christians. Historically, nations that are theocracies have been absolute disasters. At no time in history has a theocracy survived – and the time they were around was extended only through violence and bloodshed. It doesn’t matter what religion the theocracy is based on – they don’t survive.

In modern times, the most secular nation in the world, Norway, also has the lowest murder rate in the world, lowest rape rate in the world, etc. A country of mostly atheists is the most civil and moral nation on the planet.

The most religious areas of the world are the most violent areas of the world. Even in the microcosm that we call America are prime examples of this. There are more crimes committed in the religious parts of America than in the more secular parts. The Bible belt has the highest divorce rates (Barna Research), highest murder rates (Bureau of Justice), highest teen pregnancy rates (Planned Parenthood), highest drug use (ATF), highest high school dropout rate (Department of Education), highest non-violent crime rate (Bureau of Justice), and highest rape rate (Bureau of Justice).

SHELLI: “You want to see a poster Christian woman, just look at me. I don’t drink, don’t smoke, don’t do drugs, don’t have sex, and I support wonderful charities…”

Does this mean you don’t subscribe to the virtues of Christian humility? Does posing in a bikini make you a poster Christian woman (yes, I know about that)? Does your bragging about becoming a movie star and author fit into the humbleness that Jesus called for?

SHELLI: “There is no such thing as murder in the name of Jesus.”

Some people visit Fantasy Island… you visit Fantasy Planet. Earth to Shelli… come in, Shelli! The followers of Jesus have committed heinous crimes against humanity and all variations of the species. The war on infidels, women, slaves, and others have cost the world billions of lives. I can hear you now saying, “But they weren’t true Christians!” Spin it any way that makes you feel better, but the bottom line is that all the sword-wielding, bomb-toting, shot-taking, evil-talking, and anti-humanity killers for Jesus were TRUE Christians in every sense of the word.

SHELLI: “That is an abomination of everything that He stands for.”

What about Matthew 10:34? “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

What about Luke 22:36? “Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Or how about Romans 13:4, which specifically says Jesus is the bearer of the sword? “For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid, for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

What about Revelation? Is not the act of killing millions of non-believers an act of murder? Is this not the same mentality of the Crusaders – to kill the infidels?

SHELLI: “Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ….not a religion. Religion is man-made. Christianity is the only faith that is not man-made.”

That’s so ludicrous that I’m actually having a hard time thinking of a response. I’m simply flabbergasted that you would even think that Christianity is not man-made or not a religion. Do you go to church? Do you sing hymns? Do you chant prayers? Do you read scripture aloud? If you do any of this then you are engaging in organized religion: organized by man. The religion of Christianity is based entirely on laws and rules set down in a dogmatic book – the very foundation of religious rituals and rites.

SHELLI: “My friend, you need to re-read the New Testament.”

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.

SHELLI: “I feel sorry for you that you think prostitution should be legalized. That is an ugly profession that inevitably spreads disease and destruction to everyone.”

I can’t believe you would dishonor your Savior like that. Who do you think Mary Magdalene was? Jesus never admonished her for her prostitution and never said anything bad about her for engaging in prostitution.

If you’re going to spout off, you should at least know your facts. Where prostitution is legalized and controlled, the spread of disease is seriously decreased because of regulations and medical requirements. Nevada is a good example. Where illegal prostitution is occurring (on the street corners), disease is still a problem. Where legal prostitution is occurring (in the brothels), disease is almost non-existence. The reason that it is almost non-existent is because all the girls are given medical exams and tests and regulations are adhered to that keep both the women and men clean and safe.

SHELLI: “You know what suppresses sexual desires and sin? Focusing on the Lord Jesus Christ AT ALL TIMES!”

Yeah, I can see where focusing on Jesus at all times could suppress your sexual desires. I’m getting ready to make love to a woman and I can’t, because I’ve got the face of Jesus stuck in my head. Who can become aroused when Jesus’ face is starting at you? It’s almost as bad as putting the face of Barbara Bush on your lover – it’s an instant premature ejaculation prevention kit.

Why would you want to suppress your sexual desires, anyway? Did not your Bible-God tell you to go forth and bare fruit? Did not your Bible-God make a man for a woman and a woman for a man? Why did your Bible-God make sexual encounters feel good if he didn’t want you to have sexual intercourse? Why did your Bible-God make a penis and vagina if they weren’t meant to interact with each other? Sex feels good for a reason. What is it with the Christian hang-up on sexuality?

SHELLI: “By the way, what is this about not talking in church?”

I said that if YOU talked then you are an abomination unto God and going to Hell because you have violated biblical law. You are a woman – a lesser human in the eyes of Christianity. You are to be submissive. Your very defense of your Bible-God in these emails is a transgression against your Bible-God. A male should be doing this, not you.

Haven’t you read your Bible completely? If you had you should remember the laws for women. You, as a woman, are not allowed to talk in church – you are not permitted to speak at all. 1 Corinthians 14:34 says, “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.”

SHELLI: “It is great to be a Christian woman! I feel so free and at peace!”

I fail to see how this can be if you follow all the biblical laws for women. You are obviously violating a lot of them if you feel so free and at peace.

Your husband can divorce you any time he wants if he finds anything unclean about you. If two husbands find a woman unclean, then she is an abomination unto the Lord. (Deuteronomy 24:1-4)

If you get married and you’re not a virgin, then you are to be stoned to death because you are an abomination unto the Lord. (Deuteronomy 22:13-30)

When you are menstruating, you are to be “put apart” for seven days. That means you are to be isolated from everyone. No one is allowed to touch you, because if they do, then they are now unclean as well and must follow the rules to become clean again. Anything that you sit on during your menstruation period is unclean and must be cleaned thoroughly in accordance with the laws and rules. You must also sleep in a separate bed during your period so that others do not sit on your unclean bed. Do you do all these things in accordance with Leviticus 15:19-33?

You’re only allowed to receive an inheritance from your father if you have no brother. If you have any brothers at all, then they are to receive all inheritance from the dead father. (Numbers 27:1-11)

If your husband and another man are fighting and he is about to be killed, you cannot grab the other man’s genitals to stop him from killing your husband. If you do, your hand is to be cut off without pity. (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)

You are not allowed to wear anything that men wear or anything that resembles a man’s garment. This means you can’t wear shorts, jeans, slacks, suits, etc. If you wear any of these things then you are an abomination unto the Lord. (Deuteronomy 22:5)

You have to pray and attend church with your hair covered. Why is this so? Men are not to be covered because they are the glory of God, but women are nothing more than the glory of man. You were created for man. You are also to have long hair, for it is a glory unto you, where a man is to have short hair (so much for all those long-hair depictions of Moses in the movies, huh?). (1 Corinthians 11:5-15)

You are to submit completely to your husband because he is to you as God is to him. (Ephesians 5:21-33)

You have to dress modestly and refrain from adorning yourself. You should not braid your hair; adorn yourself with gold or pearls, or “costly array.” That means no more bikinis, shorts, tank tops or halter-tops for you. (1 Timothy 2:9, 1 Peter 3:3)

You also cannot teach men. This means that female teachers are an abomination unto your Bible-God. This means that your email to me, in attempt to teach me about your Bible-God, is an abomination unto your Lord. Going over all this stuff it’s clear to see that you are going to Hell based on your Bible-God’s “loving” affection toward the lower class woman. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) It should be noted that you are allowed to teach younger women, so female teachers in an all-girls school is okay (Titus 2:3-5).

If you’re a widow over the age of 30, then you are not allowed in church anymore. You have to stay at home and pray and be humble and sad – you cannot enjoy life if you are a widow, because being a happy widow is worse than being an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:1-16)

SHELLI: “It must really suck to be an atheist because whether you know it or not, you have no assurance of anything.”

I have more assurances than you. I have assurances from my family and loved ones. I have assurances from my own actions. I have assurances from the sciences. I’m not the one that has to rely on faith to keep me “assured.”

SHELLI: “There is so much evidence of God’s presence, how can you possibly miss it?”

Really? Where? If you have evidence of God and specifically of his “presence,” then you need to present it immediately. All of your fellow brethren apologists have been searching for years for evidence to prove such. If you have this evidence then give it to them. They need some evidence because their circular logic is becoming rather tiresome.

SHELLI: “A fool says in his heart there is no God.”

Yep, you’re definitely going to Hell if there is one. Jesus specifically commanded you not to say “fool” to anyone because that would surely place you in hellfire. “…But whosoever shall say, thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.” (Matthew 5:22) Of course Jesus violated his own advice and called people fools (Matthew 23:17).

SHELLI: “Oh, I forgot. Just wanted to remind you that the two Columbine shooters were both atheists. They asked Cassie Bernall if she believed in God or not. She said ‘yes’, and they blew her head off. God Bless her precious soul.”

How does this make them atheists? If anything it makes them Christians. They made sure she believed in God before they killed her so she could go to Heaven.

I would also remind you that the story is false. Cassie Barnall’s brother, Craig, is the one that perpetuated the lie. Others knew it was a lie but did not come forward until later. You can read about the false martyrdom of Cassie online at Salon.Com. Of course if you believe the Bible you’ll believe anything you read, especially the liars for Jesus, such as Cassie’s parents that knew before Misty wrote the book that the account was false.

When they asked a student if she believed in God and she said yes, they didn’t shoot her again and let her live. The Columbine shooters were Christians.

SHELLI: “And as for torturing animals, I am mainly referring to the horrible people who are randomly killing stray dogs and cats, even precious household pets.”

I’m not sure exactly what you are referring to, but I can attest personally to an issue that came up when I lived in Southern California. We had a large stray cat problem on our street. We called the city, county and anyone else that would listen. Animal control refused to help because the animals had not bitten anyone. So we called the Humane Society and the ASPCA and they refused to help as well.

This left the neighborhood no choice to but terminate the animals by themselves. Different neighbors used different techniques, but ultimately the stray cat problem was resolved. Many cats were trapped and brought to the pound where they were put down. It’s unfortunate that some of the cats had to be taken out with guns and other devices, but no one would help – even your beloved ASPCA and Humane Society.

SHELLI: “Accountability is up to the age of 12. Then you are responsible for your actions in the eyes of God.”

Please provide the biblical reference for this. What scripture provides the age of accountability? If you can provide this information you’ll be the first to ever provide it. Even the preachers that I’ve talked to couldn’t give me the scriptural reference for this supposed age of accountability.

The bottom line is that babies that die go to Hell because they don’t know Jesus. Apologists have been dealing with that since the dawn of Christianity.

SHELLI: “I hope you go to the movies a lot because you will soon be seeing a lot of me.”

Right. Make sure you let me know when Hollywood opens her doors to you. Isn’t Hollywood supposed to be “of Satan?” Isn’t dreaming of working for Hollywood contrary to Christian standards? What about that humility we spoke of earlier when you declared yourself to be a poster child of Christian womanhood?

SHELLI: “I have an autistic spectrum disorder called Asperger’s Syndrome, which incurs such symptoms as depression. Do a search on the Internet, and you will find evidence that we are very highly intelligent and have ultra-sensitivity.”

My research indicates the complete opposite of what you are saying. People suffering AS show significant deficiencies in social skills and have difficulty accepting change or transition (they love routines). AS causes a problem in recognizing non-verbal cues and body language, and they often have a hard time determining the proper body position for a moment, which has led to conflicts because of improper body language.

Most AS sufferers have obsessive routines and tend to be obsessed or preoccupied with a single subject of interest (such as religion). Your statement about being overly sensitive is accurate in regards to sounds, tastes, smells and sights.

However, those with AS have normal intelligence, while some AS sufferers exhibit exceptional skills in a specific talent or area (usually because of their obsessive routines and preoccupation with such a skill or talent or subject). Those with AS are considered naïve and they are often viewed as eccentric.

AS sufferers also have difficulty with pragmatics and prosody because of problems in language development. People with AS are extremely literal and have a very difficult time understanding context, meaning and sarcasm in the social arena. (Sources: What is Asperger Syndrome by Barbara L. Kirby, ICC 299.80, Asperger’s Syndrome by Dr. Stephen M. Edelson at the Center for the Study of Autism in Salem, OR)

If you have AS then I offer my sympathies. I would remind you that it was you that mentioned mental illness in your email. My entry in the debate is clear on this, “If what she was saying was true about her mental illness, I felt it better to terminate the “debate” – it was the moral thing to do.

SHELLI: “So, I can tell you for certain that there is another dimension in existence beyond this one.”

Are you suggesting that AS provides you with ESP? Physicians are clear that overly sensitive reactions to certain sounds, tastes, etc are normal in AS. They are clear that it is not all sounds or all tastes, but certain sounds and tastes. Nowhere is there any medical documentation of any ESP or awareness of any other dimension. You’re going to have to prove this. Telling me “for certain” is not going to cut it.

SHELLI: ”I am a perfectly logical and sensible person.”

That’s certainly debatable.

SHELLI: “I am kind of offended that you were mocking me on your website. Do you normally make fun of “autistic” people who know a heck of a lot more than you ever will?”

I was not mocking you because of your “condition.” I simply stated that because of your mental condition that it was not prudent for me to continue the debate. I felt that it was an immoral thing to do. However, because you seem keen on maintaining the dialogue, I changed my mind and now we are continuing the debate.

I understand that AS makes it hard for you to understand context and sarcasm, so I’m going to be very literal: Your condition made me uncomfortable debating you. I did not feel at ease continuing the debate because of the way you were acting. This is why I mentioned it on the page and said I was terminating the debate. However, because of your insistence on continuing and now, my awareness of why you were behaving in such a manner, I think it is okay to continue.

I would ask you to make an extra effort to grasp the context and to not take everything I say literally. This will help avoid unnecessary conflicts as we continue.

SHELLI: “OH, AND I OFTEN WRITE IN CAPS AT 36 FONT BECAUSE I THINK IT IS FUN. SOMETIMES I DO IT IN DIFFERENT COLORS.”

What you need to understand that in the cyber world all caps is seen as yelling and screaming and a sign of anger. While you may see it as fun, others see it as a form of yelling. I would recommend that you not use all caps and large fonts unless you intend for your type to be understood as yelling.

SHELLI: “If you are so smart, scientific, and able to read people with that wacky atheist mind of yours, describe what I look like.”

Hmm… let’s see if I can do this. You’re 5’2 and weigh around 100 pounds. You have blonde hair with a light complexion. Your measurements are 36/26/35. Of course there’s your violet eyes. I’d say you wear a size 5 or 6.

So how did I do?

If I had to guess, I’d say you live in New Jersey. Have your children’s books been published yet? How do your local beauty pageants square with Christian values and humility? Doesn’t all that heavy make-up, skimpy dresses, bikinis (even if they are of the stars and stripes variety), and even modeling disagree with Christian principles?

SHELLI: “I am also offended that you were entertained by my accounts of being raped, abused, and suffering from eating disorders. Typical atheist. Arrogant and sarcastic, always getting your kicks out of mocking nice people, especially Christians.”

Entertaining? I assume this is your AS taking things literally and out of context, as this was simply not the case. What I did say is that all those things lend to where you are at now – why you need the psychological crutch of religion.

What I also said is that most of the emails that I get from overly-proselytizing Christians like yourself are full of sad sappy stories that reek of past drug addictions, physical abuse, rapes, etc.

SHELLI: “There is this thing in Christianity called being humble.”

You’ve got this humble thing down pat, don’t you? All this talk of being a Hollywood superstar in films, being a great giver to charities, and everything else you mentioned. No offense, but you’re a regular braggart.

SHELLI: “Science is all speculation and proving one’s theories.”

Science is all speculation? That nonsense isn’t even worth responding to. You should know better than that.

SHELLI: “There were no witnesses to the creation of the universe.”

That’s correct, so if you’re using that argument to disprove cosmology, then that same argument holds true for any intelligent creation.

SHELLI: “At least people witnessed Jesus.”

Please give me all the witnesses. Your apologists can’t find any witnesses to Jesus, so why do you think there were any?

SHELLI: “A new whale species was just discovered. How did science miss that???”

Your email was bordering on ludicrous, but now it has crossed the ludicrous line.

Do you realize how many species of animals are on this planet? Each day in deep-sea research a new species of animal is discovered. New species are added to the list all the time as we explore further into the jungle, deeper into the oceans, and higher up the mountains. Not too mention that new species come about through evolution, such as the new species of iguana discovered on the Galapagos Islands last year by a team working for the Animal Planet. Certainly you’re not suggesting that science should know all the species on the planet before they even begin to look?

SHELLI: “Remember the coelacanth? Fisherman caught one when it was believed to be extinct for millions of years.”

Actually, the coelacanth was thought to be extinct for less than 100 years. None had been seen or caught during that time until one was finally dredged up and they were removed from the extinct list. Earth is a large planet and new species are found all the time and species that were once thought to be extinct are identified. Three years ago a species of bird was identified in Asia that was thought to be extinct for almost 50 years. The only reason it was seen is because scientists setup infrared cameras to take pictures of tigers.

SHELLI: “So, how can you say for certain that there is no God and call people crazy when they have experienced evidence of an afterlife, even though you have not?”

I can say that because I have seen no evidence. If god were some invisible energy that never intervened in any aspect of the running of the universe, then I could see your point. However, the god you claim as the master of the universe is a meddling entity that intervenes and plays a crucial role in the workings of the universe. This type of meddlesome meddling will leave a fingerprint or a mark that can be identified. As many of the actions claimed to be from the Bible-God, then any of those could be proven and none of them have.

That is why we can say there is no god, especially the gods of the defined religions like yours.

As to the “afterlife,” that’s been shown to be a reaction in the brain, as the “tunnel,” etc., has been identified in non-death instances, such as in blackouts by pilots during high G forces.

Do you know what causes the “tunnel effect” in near death experiences? Air Force and Navy pilots know. They noticed the same “tunnel effect” during high G testing in a centrifuge. The pilots lost consciousness and began to see a tunnel of light and they felt like they were being pulled into it. Scientists quickly began a more dedicated research into the phenomenon and found that during times of unconsciousness and death the brain released hormones as much as ten times as normal. These hormones act like a narcotic to the brain and reduce pain stimuli to the nerve center. It causes the brain to focus in on whatever stimuli are left. This causes a tunnel effect. The effect has also been documented in high stress situations that involved fight or flight. Victims that escaped recalled not being able to hear anything or see anything except what was immediately in front of them. Everything else was blurry. They had a sense of walking down a tunnel and being in “automatic” mode.

This tunnel-like apparition is often associated as ascension to heaven in a great tunnel of light and we hear our relative’s voices calling for us and a great knowledge is at the end of the tunnel.

During an NDE experience, there are two parts of the brain that increase electrical activity at the release of these chemicals: the memory and the senses. Pain is dulled, memories and stored knowledge are active, and our sense of hearing and sight are greatly enhanced, but focused intensely, causing a tunnel-like vision. The end of the tunnel contains knowledge because our memories are active and everything we have ever learned and memorized is racing through our brain.

You didn’t experience the “afterlife,” what you experienced was a biological reaction.

SHELLI: ”There have been so many reports of people being miraculously cured of terminal illnesses, and the doctors even confirmed that medically, there had been no hope for their recovery.”

Yes, there have been many reports, but no documentations. Miracle healings without any medical interference would cause a media uproar. We’ve never seen it. Why is that? There has been no proven miracle recovery. There have been plenty of documented cases of placebo-effect recoveries and recoveries enhanced and aided by meditative biofeedback, such as seen in meditation, prayer, etc.

Every time someone has contacted me with a miracle cure they’ve never been able to prove it. Most of the time they don’t even email me back when I challenge them to produce the evidence. They can’t do it because there is no evidence – it’s all fabricated nonsense to make people feel better.

SHELLI: “I am talking about people who were stricken with cancer all over their bodies, and once they were prayed for, immediately began to heal. Again, do some research on these accounts.”

All research on these “accounts” is conclusive to falsehoods. Each account was made-up, exaggerated by liars for Jesus, or found to be completely at the hands of medical science. No one has ever proven these accounts and never will because your god and no other gods exist.

SHELLI: “Why do you say you don’t hate theists, and then a few sentences later, you say you do?”

Obviously we’re dealing with your inability to understand context and to take things literally. Let me rephrase that part from my Q&A for you so you can understand it better.

I don’t hate theists. What I do hate are theists that use their theism to promote hatred, war, etc. Do you see the difference?

Let me give you an analogy to help you along. I don’t hate dogs in general, but I do hate dogs that bite me. Is that easier for you to understand?

SHELLI: “You either hate, or you don’t. Which is it? Proves my theory that atheists are haters.”

No, it just proves that you have difficulty understanding what I’m saying.

SHELLI: “Studies have shown that premarital cohabitation and sex increase the likelihood of a divorce.”

Please provide the studies and data from the studies to back up that statement. Every study that I have seen shows that cohabitation prior to marriage reduces the chances of divorce. You’ll have to back that statement up.

SHELLI: “When you fall in love with someone, it is unconditional… which means that you still love the other person no matter how many bad habits they have or how mediocre they are in bed. Those are petty things that can be improved.”

In order to love someone you have to know that person. If you fall in love before knowing someone, then you are a victim of lust – not love. There are some things that we, as individuals, cannot stand and it is nice to know what those things are before we commit to someone without even knowing who they are or what they do.

SHELLI: “You have demonstrated that by your own foolish words.”

There you go again… paving your way to Hell by disobeying the words of Jesus that those that call people fools are destined for hellfire.

SHELLI: “Visit some distraught pregnant teens sometime who do not know who their babies’ fathers are.”

Teen pregnancy is not the issue here. What is the issue is cohabitation before marriage. Teenagers do not get married. We’re talking about apples and you’re throwing oranges around. The failure to use protection during sex as a teenager is not even in the same league as two adults cohabitating before marriage. Stop throwing smoke.

SHELLI: “A person who waits till marriage will never have to deal with that kind of mayhem and heartbreak.”

Right. Everyone that cohabitates before they get married was having teenage sex and gave birth to a baby at the age of 15. That was sarcasm by the way, so please don’t take it literally.

SHELLI: “The children are then at least given a chance of a stable homelife with a mother and a father under one roof and committed to each other.”

Right. Everyone that cohabitates before they get married bring children from their teenage sexual escapades with them to the house. No one that cohabitates prior to marriage have children after they marry – they all get pregnant beforehand and ruin their relationships, causing fatherless and motherless children. Again, that was sarcasm, so please don’t take it literally.

SHELLI: “So you are saying that all the couples in marriage counseling are atheists???”

No, I’m saying that couples in counseling are not Fundamentalists. I’m saying that couples that use secular counseling instead of praying to their invisible friend in the sky have a better chance of saving their marriage. You don’t solve marital problems by praying to god – you solve them by talking to each other. Again I think we are dealing with your sense of literalism and failure to understand context.

SHELLI: “You are nuts. Children are the innocent ones. Jesus said, “Verily I say to you, whosoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.””

Perhaps you should re-read what you sent me? What Jesus is saying is that children that do not receive the kingdom of god shall not enter heaven. This means that children that die before receiving the kingdom of god go to Hell. Are you sure you don’t want to rethink that and try again?

SHELLI: “Apparently, you skipped some important verses in the Bible that answer those questions.”

Really? Perhaps you can quote me the verse that says babies that don’t know about Jesus get into Heaven? Can you give me the scripture that says children that have not learned of Jesus get a “get out of Hell free” card? I can’t find it. Apologists can’t find it. What Bible are you reading – the one you wrote? (That was mocking you, by the way)

Shelli Rebuttal #009:

Email #1:

BLAIR: “Perhaps you should re-read what you sent me? What Jesus is saying is that children that do not receive the kingdom of god shall not enter heaven. This means that children that die before receiving the kingdom of god go to Hell. Are you sure you don’t want to rethink that and try again?”

Here is your answer: “And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them; and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, ‘Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.’ And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.” Mark 10:13-16

BLAIR: “Does this mean you don’t subscribe to the virtues of Christian humility? Does posing in a bikini make you a poster Christian woman (yes, I know about that)? Does your bragging about becoming a movie star and author fit into the humbleness that Jesus called for?”

I am simply stating what I do for a living. How is that bragging? I was trying my swimsuit on, and my best friend told me to pose for pictures at her home! I do not do nudity, nor will I ever do professional swimsuit or lingerie modeling. My primary interests are acting and writing. I love performing. I love entertaining people. If I can make anyone smile, that would be the perfect day for me.

BLAIR: “Some people visit Fantasy Island… you visit Fantasy Planet. Earth to Shelli… come in, Shelli! The followers of Jesus have committed heinous crimes against humanity and all variations of the species. The war on infidels, women, slaves, and others have cost the world billions of lives. I can hear you now saying, “But they weren’t true Christians!” Spin it any way that makes you feel better, but the bottom line is that all the sword-wielding, bomb-toting, shot-taking, evil-talking, and anti-humanity killers for Jesus were TRUE Christians in every sense of the word.”

Jesus said to love and respect your fellow man. That means no killing in His name. How much clearer can I make it?

BLAIR: “What about Matthew 10:34? “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.”

What about Luke 22:36? “Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.””

The “sword” is the Word of God. Apparently, you take everything literally. Jesus said, “I give my peace unto you.” Enough said.

BLAIR: “That’s so ludicrous that I’m actually having a hard time thinking of a response. I’m simply flabbergasted that you would even think that Christianity is not man-made or not a religion. Do you go to church? Do you sing hymns? Do you chant prayers? Do you read scripture aloud? If you do any of this then you are engaging in organized religion: organized by man. The religion of Christianity is based entirely on laws and rules set down in a dogmatic book – the very foundation of religious rituals and rites.”

Jesus Christ was our Emmanuel, “God among us”. If He had not been on this earth, there would be no Christians. Hence, Christianity is not man-made.

BLAIR: “I can’t believe you would dishonor your Savior like that. Who do you think Mary Magdalene was? Jesus never admonished her for her prostitution and never said anything bad about her for engaging in prostitution.

If you’re going to spout off, you should at least know your facts. Where prostitution is legalized and controlled, the spread of disease is seriously decreased because of regulations and medical requirements. Nevada is a good example. Where illegal prostitution is occurring (on the street corners), disease is still a problem. Where legal prostitution is occurring (in the brothels), disease is almost non-existence. The reason that it is almost non-existent is because all the girls are given medical exams and tests and regulations are adhered to that keep both the women and men clean and safe.”

Fornication is a sin, my friend. Jesus NEVER condoned it. He forgives it. He does not condone it. Mary Magdalene was saved from the wages of her sin because of Christ’s forgiveness. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” John 3:16-17

BLAIR: “Yeah, I can see where focusing on Jesus at all times could suppress your sexual desires. I’m getting ready to make love to a woman and I can’t, because I’ve got the face of Jesus stuck in my head. Who can become aroused when Jesus’ face is starting at you? It’s almost as bad as putting the face of Barbara Bush on your lover – it’s an instant premature ejaculation prevention kit.

Why would you want to suppress your sexual desires, anyway? Did not your Bible-God tell you to go forth and bare fruit? Did not your Bible-God make a man for a woman and a woman for a man? Why did your Bible-God make sexual encounters feel good if he didn’t want you to have sexual intercourse? Why did your Bible-God make a penis and vagina if they weren’t meant to interact with each other? Sex feels good for a reason. What is it with the Christian hang-up on sexuality?”

Sex is for the marriage bed only. Once you are united in Holy Matrimony, you can get freaky all you want. It is worth the wait for the right person. How a person performs in bed before marriage is not relevant or important to building a successful, loving, lasting relationship. If you feel that you have to “test drive” someone, you are obviously with the wrong person.

BLAIR: “I fail to see how this can be if you follow all the biblical laws for women. You are obviously violating a lot of them if you feel so free and at peace.

Your husband can divorce you any time he wants if he finds anything unclean about you. If two husbands find a woman unclean, then she is an abomination unto the Lord. (Deuteronomy 24:1-4)

If you get married and you’re not a virgin, then you are to be stoned to death because you are an abomination unto the Lord. (Deuteronomy 22:13-30)

When you are menstruating, you are to be “put apart” for seven days. That means you are to be isolated from everyone. No one is allowed to touch you, because if they do, then they are now unclean as well and must follow the rules to become clean again. Anything that you sit on during your menstruation period is unclean and must be cleaned thoroughly in accordance with the laws and rules. You must also sleep in a separate bed during your period so that others do not sit on your unclean bed. Do you do all these things in accordance with Leviticus 15:19-33?

You’re only allowed to receive an inheritance from your father if you have no brother. If you have any brothers at all, then they are to receive all inheritance from the dead father. (Numbers 27:1-11)

If your husband and another man are fighting and he is about to be killed, you cannot grab the other man’s genitals to stop him from killing your husband. If you do, your hand is to be cut off without pity. (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)

You are not allowed to wear anything that men wear or anything that resembles a man’s garment. This means you can’t wear shorts, jeans, slacks, suits, etc. If you wear any of these things then you are an abomination unto the Lord. (Deuteronomy 22:5)

You have to pray and attend church with your hair covered. Why is this so? Men are not to be covered because they are the glory of God, but women are nothing more than the glory of man. You were created for man. You are also to have long hair, for it is a glory unto you, where a man is to have short hair (so much for all those long-hair depictions of Moses in the movies, huh?). (1 Corinthians 11:5-15)

You are to submit completely to your husband because he is to you as God is to him. (Ephesians 5:21-33)

You have to dress modestly and refrain from adorning yourself. You should not braid your hair; adorn yourself with gold or pearls, or “costly array.” That means no more bikinis, shorts, tank tops or halter-tops for you. (1 Timothy 2:9, 1 Peter 3:3)

You also cannot teach men. This means that female teachers are an abomination unto your Bible-God. This means that your email to me, in attempt to teach me about your Bible-God, is an abomination unto your Lord. Going over all this stuff it’s clear to see that you are going to Hell based on your Bible-God’s “loving” affection toward the lower class woman. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) It should be noted that you are allowed to teach younger women, so female teachers in an all-girls school is okay (Titus 2:3-5).

If you’re a widow over the age of 30, then you are not allowed in church anymore. You have to stay at home and pray and be humble and sad – you cannot enjoy life if you are a widow, because being a happy widow is worse than being an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:1-16)”

This is ludicrous! These were the laws of men! Can’t you tell? Men have been trying to suppress women’s rights for thousands of years. That is not God’s will for His precious daughters. Would you want your daughters treated like that? I don’t think so. Woman are to be viewed as more precious than rubies. I have accepted the lord Jesus Christ as my blessed Savior, and I walk in His ways. I am not going to Hell. You have to “walk the walk”, not just “talk the talk”. That is where many so-called Christians fail in their lives. All talk, no action. You reap what you sow. You sow wickedness, you reap wickedness. You sow love, you reap love.

BLAIR: “I have more assurances than you. I have assurances from my family and loved ones. I have assurances from my own actions. I have assurances from the sciences. I’m not the one that has to rely on faith to keep me “assured.””

I have assurances from my friends and family as well…AND God. That puts me ahead of you. What would you do if everyone you “loved” was gone tomorrow?? Huhh?

I have to read more about the Columbine shooters. They definitely weren’t holding the loving Word of God in their hearts, were they? If they were not atheists, they were definitely Satanists.

BLAIR: “Please provide the biblical reference for this. What scripture provides the age of accountability? If you can provide this information you’ll be the first to ever provide it. Even the preachers that I’ve talked to couldn’t give me the scriptural reference for this supposed age of accountability.

The bottom line is that babies that die go to Hell because they don’t know Jesus. Apologists have been dealing with that since the dawn of Christianity.”

I am simply giving you the answer that my pastor gave me a few years ago. Personally, I don’t think much of the issue.

BLAIR: “Right. Make sure you let me know when Hollywood opens her doors to you. Isn’t Hollywood supposed to be “of Satan?” Isn’t dreaming of working for Hollywood contrary to Christian standards? What about that humility we spoke of earlier when you declared yourself to be a poster child of Christian womanhood?”

There are Christians in the movie industry. You don’t hear much about them because our sick society would rather hear about the “wolves”. Face it, every time you turn on the television, sex, violence, murder, rape, etc., is thrown in your face. That is sadly what people are most rivoted by nowadays. That is what gets the ratings sky-high.

I don’t need you to relay back to me information about Asperger’s. I already know the facts, and I fit the profile. I don’t have normal intelligence, though. I have scored as high as a 152 on an IQ test. Generally, though, my average is in the 130’s. I was an Honor Roll student back in my school days, and I was awarded the Presidential Academic Fitness Award. I think there is much more for doctors to learn about this recently discovered condition. I may look like a party girl, but I am extremely shy, and I prefer not to go out and socialize much. I spend most of my time in my room actually. Basically, I have one female friend whom I have known since kindergarten and one man I have been involved with off and on for nearly 8 years. That’s it.

BLAIR: “If I had to guess, I’d say you live in New Jersey. Have your children’s books been published yet? How do your local beauty pageants square with Christian values and humility? Doesn’t all that heavy make-up, skimpy dresses, bikinis (even if they are of the stars and stripes variety), and even modeling disagree with Christian principles?”

I was in one beauty pageant in 1990 when I was 15. I was not dressed skimpy. There was casual wear and evening wear….no swimsuits. I have never modeled. I wear makeup only when I leave the house, which is rarely. I have no skimpy dresses. Actually, I own only a few dresses, and they are all long in length. My bikini is for the beach only, my friend…..or lying out in my backyard away from people. I did not even get to the shore this year. Understand??

BLAIR: “You’ve got this humble thing down pat, don’t you? All this talk of being a Hollywood superstar in films, being a great giver to charities, and everything else you mentioned. No offense, but you’re a regular braggart.”

I am humble. If you lived with me in the same house, you would know. I am very quiet.

BLAIR: “Science is all speculation? That nonsense isn’t even worth responding to. You should know better than that.”

I got A’s in science! Science is all about, “Uh, how does this work? Let’s see.” It nevers explains why. Hypotheses, theories, etc., etc…all speculation.

BLAIR: “Please give me all the witnesses. Your apologists can’t find any witnesses to Jesus, so why do you think there were any?”

I think the people that Jesus healed were great witnesses to His power. Uh, how about His disciples? Mary Magdalene? The Virgin Mary? How about those of us today who have experienced His love and healing? The world is just full of witnesses to His glory.

I think the people that experienced near death would know better what happened to them. Doctors cannot disprove anything. They weren’t inside the people’s heads as they were dying.

BLAIR: “All research on these “accounts” is conclusive to falsehoods. Each account was made-up, exaggerated by liars for Jesus, or found to be completely at the hands of medical science. No one has ever proven these accounts and never will because your god and no other gods exist.”

PROVE IT.

BLAIR: “Obviously we’re dealing with your inability to understand context and to take things literally. Let me rephrase that part from my Q&A for you so you can understand it better.

I don’t hate theists. What I do hate are theists that use their theism to promote hatred, war, etc. Do you see the difference?

Let me give you an analogy to help you along. I don’t hate dogs in general, but I do hate dogs that bite me. Is that easier for you to understand?”

Hate is hate is hate. I think what you are trying to convey is you hate it WHEN a dog bites you. Otherwise, you would be contradicting yourself in your statements. Here is an analogy for you, too. I love my cats, but I ‘hate’ when they scratch me. I still love my kitties. That is unconditional love. Here is another analogy. You love your kids, right? Do you hate THEM when they get into trouble….or do you hate WHEN they get in trouble? HMMMMM…..See the difference? Can you hate your kids??

BLAIR: “No, it just proves that you have difficulty understanding what I’m saying.”

I don’t think so. Not with a genius IQ. I think the true nature of Christianity is FAR beyond your understanding and that of many Christians. Sermon on the Mount????? Billy Graham???? What an embarrassment. No wonder Christianity is a joke to a lot of people. No one “gets it”. Again, you gotta “walk the walk”….or there will be nothing short of wickedness and destruction in people’s lives. (The so-called “Bible Belt”, for example. Nothing but a pack of wolves.)

In order to love someone you have to know that person. If you fall in love before knowing someone, then you are a victim of lust – not love. There are some things that we, as individuals, cannot stand and it is nice to know what those things are before we commit to someone without even knowing who they are or what they do.

Fornication is a sin. Having premarital sex is irrelevant to knowing someone. To do so is to lust. Like, “Ooo, let’s see how good this one is in bed…Then maybe I will love her enough to commit to her.” Please!!!What is most important is what lives in their soul…That is what you really fall in love with.

BLAIR: “Teen pregnancy is not the issue here. What is the issue is cohabitation before marriage. Teenagers do not get married. We’re talking about apples and you’re throwing oranges around. The failure to use protection during sex as a teenager is not even in the same league as two adults cohabitating before marriage. Stop throwing smoke.”

Teenagers do get married, my friend. Read sometime, will you? A lot of them get married BECAUSE of the pregnancy…DANGER! 2 adults cohabitating before marriage could be running around on each other and having unprotected sex with multiple partners. Think of all the children that could be born into this disgusting situation. All the diseases being spread from one person to the next. Simply living together is not a commitment!! Adults are doing the same thing teenagers are doing. Come on! It IS all the same! Fornication is fornication. A sin is a sin is a sin.

BLAIR: “Right. Everyone that cohabitates before they get married was having teenage sex and gave birth to a baby at the age of 15. That was sarcasm by the way, so please don’t take it literally.”

I am willing to bet 99.9999% of cohabitating couples are getting it on in bed. I am not stupid! It is hard to abstain when you are living together.

BLAIR: “No, I’m saying that couples in counseling are not Fundamentalists. I’m saying that couples that use secular counseling instead of praying to their invisible friend in the sky have a better chance of saving their marriage. You don’t solve marital problems by praying to god – you solve them by talking to each other. Again I think we are dealing with your sense of literalism and failure to understand context.”

As Christians, we know that to have our prayers answered, God expects us to do our part as well. He isn’t going to budge if we don’t budge. That isn’t how He operates. He isn’t going to bless us with a job if we don’t go looking for one first. He isn’t going to bless us with children unless we have sex. We aren’t the Virgin Mary. He isn’t going to repair relationships unless we help to work on them ourselves. God makes it clear in the Bible that we have to communicate. People that pray and simply sit back and wait for things to happen magically are just kidding themselves. They need psychological help.

Bottom line…..WHERE DO YOU GET ALL THIS FALSE INFORMATION ABOUT MY FAITH??? What you say is laughable. You have not a clue. I think I would know better about Christianity than you. Now, if you don’t mind, this is Christmas time. Have some respect for us who are celebrating this Holy season with our family and friends. We don’t need a bunch of atheists running around protesting depictions of the Nativity in public places. Somehow, I get the feeling that is what is going to happen eventually. The Pledge and the Ten Commandments display are just the beginning…..You atheists won’t be completely satisfied until there is absolutely no mention of the Creator in this society.

Email #2:

And another note to you….I am an award-winning poet, and I have always excelled in reading comprehension. I am fluent in Spanish, and I can understand other languages as well. So, do not even think that I cannot interpret the context of your writing. I was a child prodigy. Some symptoms of Asperger’s have been a nuisance to me, but others have been a strength. Don’t forget also that I am an adult with Asperger’s, not a child. There is a MAJOR difference. Most studies I believe have been drawn from children.

Email #3:

Also, stop throwing Old Testament scriptures in my face about stoning unruly children or women who have premarital sex. In your eyes, Christians are disobeying God if they do not adhere to these punishments. News flash! There were no Christians in that time period. I believe the word “Christian” was only mentioned twice in the New Testament. Jesus Christ changed the world once He came around. He was accused of heresy for going against the norm. He was called a blasphemer. His ministry was one of love. He was nailed to a cross for atonement of our sins. Therefore, the “laws of men” of the Old Testament no longer apply. We have a new covenant with God. We were saved from the wages of sin because of the blood of the Lamb. Why can women talk in church? Because of the cross. Why do we no longer stone people to death for adultery? Because of the cross. Why do we eat shellfish? Because of the cross. We are free because of what Jesus did for us 2,000 years ago. Why can’t you seem to grasp the concept of Christianity. If you really understood my faith, you would not be making references to old customs that were prevalent years and years before the birth of Christ. As far as the Sabbath is concerned, there is no law of God that says it must be on a Saturday or a Sunday. Again, that was a custom of men thousands of years ago. It can be any day of the week put aside for quiet time for yourself. We all deserve at least one day of rest per week. That is all it is. Not a big deal. The world has changed, Mr. Scott. However, the basic principles of Christianity remain the same. Love one another as God has loved you.

P.S. The Ten Commandments are the laws of God, not of men….so don’t even try to tell me that I’m contradicting myself. I think God worries more about His children dying unsaved than whether we are consuming crabs at Red Lobster on a Sunday.

Response to Shelli #009:

SHELLI: “”And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them; and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, ‘Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.’ And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.” Mark 10:13-16”

Thank you for confirming what I said in the first place. If a child does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter heaven. Mark 10:13-16 is very clear. Jesus himself, in that passage, is the one that gives the children the knowledge of God and blesses them. Children that die before they receive the knowledge of God go to Hell. Jesus makes it very clear in the very passage that you provided.

SHELLI: ”The “sword” is the Word of God. Apparently, you take everything literally. Jesus said, “I give my peace unto you.” Enough said.”

I fail to see how you can say that the “sword” is the Word of God in either of these passages. In Luke 22:36 Jesus is talking about selling ones clothing so he can buy a sword. Are you suggesting that the Kingdom of God can be bought? Not coming for peace but as a sword has nothing to do with establishing a kingdom. You are seriously stretching it here. There is no logical way you can read those two passages and make the assertion that “sword” is an analogy for the kingdom of God unless you are willing to capitulate, at a minimum, that the kingdom of God can be bribed with nothing more than the value of one’s undergarments.

SHELLI: ”Jesus Christ was our Emmanuel, “God among us”. If He had not been on this earth, there would be no Christians. Hence, Christianity is not man-made.”

Do you think that Hinduism is a man-made religion? The “prophets” of Hinduism are incarnations of the God Vishnu – God in the form of flesh. By your own thinking you must admit then that Hinduism is not a man-made religion, but, as you put it, a “relationship.” Perhaps we should look at the very definition of religion and see what fits?

Religion is defined as:

“Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.”

That fits Christianity perfectly. If we are to believe what you have written in your rebuttals, then we can assume that every aspect of your life is affected by your so-called “relationship” with Jesus. Jesus, regardless of his status as man, God-man, or prophet, was a spiritual leader. You have beliefs and values that you based upon the teachings of Jesus. You have rites and rituals that you perform in order to maintain that relationship.

Whether you admit it or not, the “relationship” is a religion. By the very acts that you do, such as pray, read your Bible, attend church, proselytize, etc – you ensure the religiosity of the so-called “relationship.”

SHELLI: “Sex is for the marriage bed only. Once you are united in Holy Matrimony, you can get freaky all you want. It is worth the wait for the right person. How a person performs in bed before marriage is not relevant or important to building a successful, loving, lasting relationship.”

You are correct that sex is not necessary in building a successful relationship. There are many relationships that last through periods of impotency and older couples last long beyond their ability to engage in sexual activity.

However, sex plays an important role in the relationship – it allows a level of intimacy not achieved through any other method or manner. To jump into marriage without having sex beforehand can be detrimental to the relationship. I will grant you that this is not the norm for everyone – there are always exceptions.

Allow me to relay a story about the pitfalls of “no sex before marriage.” A friend of mine was telling me about this man that she had a huge crush on in high school. Several years after graduation she ran into this man and they became instant friends. The relationship developed over several months and sex was not part of the picture. Each of them was considering marriage and was deeply in love with the other.

One night they decided to finally have sex. After a lengthy time of foreplay the man tried to penetrate her vagina and he was unable to. The man was too wide and long to fit into her vagina. No amount of lubricant solved the problem. Can you imagine discovering this problem on your wedding night? Talk about a devastating blow to a new relationship! The wedding night would be ruined and, to use religious talk, the marriage would never be consummated.

By trying to have sex before they got married, they were able to discover this issue and prevent the relationship from going further and causing excessive hurt for either party.

The Kama Sutra discusses the issue of size, both male and female, and lays out a chart of what sizes can work and what cannot. In countries where marriage is still arranged, the parents have to take into consideration the size of the man’s penis and the woman’s vagina. Parents will not arrange marriages for couples that are incompatible because of the size of their sexual organs.

Of course size of one’s genitalia is just one aspect of why sex before marriage is important. Not necessary – but important.

SHELLI: “If you feel that you have to “test drive” someone, you are obviously with the wrong person.”

It is not about a “test drive.” It is to ensure that compatibility goes beyond emotional attachment. How can one be intimate with someone if all they do is lay there like a log during sexual activity? How can one be intimate with someone if his penis is too large and causes severe pain for the female? How can one be intimate with someone if the vagina cavity is so large that it provides almost no sensation for the man’s penis, which happens to be below the average size?

If you want to call it a “test drive,” then so be it. What it amounts to is an assurance that there is mutual compatibility and sexual gratification before a long-term commitment. I agree with you that sex on the first date is not necessary, nor appropriate. I am of the mindset that feelings for someone are important before one engages in sexual activity. It may not be love, but one should at least feel for the other person. I see sex as a way of being intimate – not of consummating a marriage.

SHELLI: “This is ludicrous! These were the laws of men! Can’t you tell? Men have been trying to suppress women’s rights for thousands of years. That is not God’s will for His precious daughters.”

I thought the Bible was the literal word of God? Are admitting men wrote the Bible? Are you suggesting that God did not inspire the Bible? If men wrote the Bible then how can you know for sure what is and what is not truly God’s word? Could not have man written that God gave Moses the Commandments, but in reality Moses made them up?

SHELLI: “Would you want your daughters treated like that?”

No, I would not want my daughters treated like that. That is why my daughters do not go to church and they are not part of any religious group that tries to make women submissive. The worst adversary of woman’s rights in the world has been religion.

SHELLI: “I have assurances from my friends and family as well…AND God. That puts me ahead of you. What would you do if everyone you “loved” was gone tomorrow?? Huhh?”

How does having assurances from an imaginary friend put you ahead of me? That’s no different than saying that I have assurances from Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

If everyone I loved were suddenly gone tomorrow, then I would find others to love. When one leads a loving and compassionate life then finding loved ones is not hard.

SHELLI: ”I have to read more about the Columbine shooters. They definitely weren’t holding the loving Word of God in their hearts, were they? If they were not atheists, they were definitely Satanists.”

You just can’t accept the fact that the Columbine shooters were atheists. What you have done is accepted bogus email as “gospel.” Of course the Christian mindset allows you to do just that – a pattern of gullibility and a false ideology of “argument from authority,” in that anything that comes from a supposedly reliable source must be true. If only Christians would start to verify their so-called authority figures before repeating what they’ve read and heard like parrots.

They were not Satanists. They were church-going Christians. Just accept that fact. Of course if you hadn’t tried to play the “guilty by association” card then we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Before you try to throw mud in someone’s face you should make sure that you don’t have any in your face.

SHELLI: “I am simply giving you the answer that my pastor gave me a few years ago. Personally, I don’t think much of the issue.”

Your pastor is an idiot, then. You should think a lot about the issue. This is a major issue with Christian theology. It shows just how immoral Christian theology is. It’s bad enough that the theology burns people in Hell for eternity, but to burn innocent children and babies in Hell because they did not gain knowledge of God is insufferably immoral. There is no scripture that backs up the “age of accountability” because it was invented by the church. Do you not think it inconvenient that whenever your pastor mentions it that he doesn’t provide scriptural reference? As we talked about above, Jesus himself said that children that do not receive the kingdom of God will burn in Hell.

SHELLI: “Face it, every time you turn on the television, sex, violence, murder, rape, etc., is thrown in your face. That is sadly what people are most rivoted by nowadays. That is what gets the ratings sky-high.”

Face it, every time you open the Bible you are confronted with sex, violence, murder, rape, genocide, incest, fratricide, infanticide, and many other atrocities. I guess that’s what gets the Bible’s ratings so sky-high? How can you speak out against such things in Hollywood, which are clearly make-believe, and then not rant against those very same atrocities in the Bible? Would you let a child read the Bible and learn about incest, rape, fratricide, and genocide (just to name a few)?

SHELLI: “I have scored as high as a 152 on an IQ test. Generally, though, my average is in the 130’s. I was an Honor Roll student back in my school days, and I was awarded the Presidential Academic Fitness Award.”

I keep getting back to this humility thing…

SHELLI: “I have never modeled.”

Yes you have. When you pose for pictures for agents you are modeling. When you pose for Miss Millennia you are modeling. Your Miss Millennia pictures speak volumes against your so-called Christian humility.

SHELLI: “My bikini is for the beach only, my friend…..or lying out in my backyard away from people. I did not even get to the shore this year. Understand??”

What I understand is that your bikini was used to model for Miss Millennia, so I fail to see how you can say that you only use it for your backyard away from people. The entire world can see you practically naked with nothing but a skimpy stars & stripes bikini on. Regardless of who took the picture and for what initial purpose, the bottom line is that you willingly posted this picture online for the world to see and to help you gain recognition with Miss Millennia. I fail to see the humility in that and I fail to see how that backs up your last statement.

I’m just calling it the way I see it – and what I see is someone posing for a web page in a skimpy bikini, a top that exposes a lot of cleavage and a dress that shows cleavage along with more makeup than a Chinese opera star.

SHELLI: “I am humble. If you lived with me in the same house, you would know. I am very quiet.”

Shyness and humility are not the same. Humility, or the act of being humble, is to be modest in one’s behavior. Being humble is to not be a braggart. I have heard nothing from you but braggart statements about your IQ, your special gifts, your rise to stardom, your seeking of Hollywood fame, your declarations of being an award-winning poet, and more. You are the complete opposite of humble. You have no humility. You’re a braggart and arrogant.

SHELLI: “I got A’s in science! Science is all about, “Uh, how does this work? Let’s see.” It nevers [sic] explains why. Hypotheses, theories, etc., etc…all speculation.”

Perhaps we’re just dealing with semantics, but it’s a major semantics issue. Science is not about speculation. Science can speculate, that’s often the road to answering a question, but speculation is not the role of science. Perhaps it would be apropos for us to define the word speculation? Speculation is the contemplation or consideration of a subject, especially in meditation. Speculation is also a conclusion, opinion, or theory reached by conjecture and is reasoning based on inconclusive evidence or supposition. Of course conjecture is guesswork and supposition is the art of supposing.

Science does not fit those criteria. If anything invalidates a theory, then the theory must be thrown out. Science is how we find facts and then use those facts to find a theory. Sometimes scientists will guess, but the tests and lab results will throw the guess out as a “bad guess.” Scientists know that the best way to gain data and knowledge is through practical experimentation and the finding of facts and data.

SHELLI: “I think the people that Jesus healed were great witnesses to His power. Uh, how about His disciples? Mary Magdalene? The Virgin Mary? How about those of us today who have experienced His love and healing? The world is just full of witnesses to His glory.”

How can people that were healed be witnesses to Jesus? None of those that were supposedly healed offered any eyewitness testimony at all. There are no books written by those who claim to have been healed by Yeshua.

His disciples? None of his disciples/apostles wrote any books. Do you think that the disciples wrote the gospels? The gospels were written much later – after the fact. How come there are no accounts of Jesus by any of the writers and historians of Jesus’ age? When Jesus gave up the ghost on the cross there were great calamities that occurred in the area: sky darkening, earth shaking, ground opening up, etc – and not a single person in the area saw it, heard or, and much less wrote about it.

The Virgin Mary? You can’t use the Bible to prove the Bible. Mary, if she existed at all, never wrote a book about Jesus and offered her testimony. She’s not a witness because people are writing about her.

The world is also full of people that swear to the power and glory of Allah, Vishnu, Zoroaster, Mithras, Yahweh, the Goddess, and many others. If you are willing to allow such “testimony” as a valid eyewitness, then you must equally accept the same “eyewitness accounts” from other religions.

Are you prepared to accept the validity of other religions on the same criteria you have listed as valid eyewitness accounts? Other religions have people that were healed. Other religions have disciples and apostles. Other religions have virgin mothers. Other religions have people that swear to the holiness and power of their god or goddess.

Can you name a single write or historian that was alive during the time of Jesus that wrote about him? Can you name a single non-Biblical reference to Jesus?

SHELLI: “I think the people that experienced near death would know better what happened to them. Doctors cannot disprove anything. They weren’t inside the people’s heads as they were dying.”

You don’t have to be inside someone’s head to understand what is going on. The chemical reactions that occur in the brain during death and trauma are well documented. NDE is an explainable event that has been scientifically shown to be a natural occurrence. People can believe what they want, but the fact remains that NDE is a natural occurrence in the brain during a traumatic event or death events where the brain still functions and the person is resuscitated before brain death occurs.

Do you think this event is unique to Christians? NDE events have been reported in every part of the world, in every culture, and a part of every religion. You can either admit that every religion is the correct one and that Christianity does not have a corner on the religious market, or you can admit that NDE is completely biological. I would suggest that, as a supposedly “A” student in science, that you accept the scientific evidence for a biological cause of NDE.

SHELLI: “PROVE IT.”

Do you know what the burden of proof is? You made the exceptional claim that faith-healing works and that there are hundreds of documented cases. I’ve called your bluff. Now it is up to you to prove that faith healing works. All I’m asking is that you provide one case where it was scientifically proven that Jesus miraculously healed someone: just one.

Many people have contacted me swearing that Jesus healed them or someone they knew in a miracle. When push came to shove and I asked for the evidence they couldn’t provide it and suddenly stopped talking to me. I exposed every one of them as liars for Jesus.

SHELLI: “I think what you are trying to convey is you hate it WHEN a dog bites you. Otherwise, you would be contradicting yourself in your statements.”

I see your point and I concede the point. You are correct that I should have stated that I don’t hate the object itself, but when the object does what I am referring to.

SHELLI: “Teenagers do get married, my friend. Read sometime, will you? A lot of them get married BECAUSE of the pregnancy…DANGER!”

Yes, sometimes teenagers do get married because of pregnancy. But teenagers are not engaged in cohabitation before marriage. You are throwing out data that is irrelevant to our conversation. We are talking about whether cohabitation before marriage is appropriate for people that love each other.

We’re not talking about sex in the back seat of Daddy’s Chevrolet. We’re talking about two adults that cohabitate before marriage in order to ensure that they are compatible and can survive a marriage to each other. It is during cohabitation that couples learn all the nuances of each other. It is during cohabitation that couples learn to appreciate each other more – or begin to resent each other. It’s not a “test drive” of the individual, but a “test drive” of the relationship to ensure that it can make it over the long haul.

The data is clear – couples that cohabitate before they get married are less likely to get divorced. The facts speak for themselves.

SHELLI: “Think of all the children that could be born into this disgusting situation. All the diseases being spread from one person to the next. Simply living together is not a commitment!!”

Living together is a commitment. Couples don’t move in and start cohabitating after their first date. Couples that do that are stupid and reckless. We’re talking about couples that love each other and cohabitate before marriage. Why are you having such a hard time keeping the issue clear?

Couples that cohabitate before they get married are less likely to get pregnant because they are taking precautions as if they were married (birth control pills, condoms, etc.). The data is clear on this issue. Cohabitation is the best route to take for couples that are serious about each other before they take the marital plunge. For serious couples that cohabitate, the average time of cohabitation before marriage is eight months. It doesn’t take long to get all the loose nuts tightened and the mess tidied up. It only takes a few months of cohabitation before you realize that you can or cannot marry the person that you love and is living with you.

Love is not the only factor for marriage. Couples break up for many reasons even though they love each other. One wants children and the other doesn’t. One wants to move and the other wants to stay where they grew up. One wants to focus on a career while the other wants to focus on home and family. Love is just one aspect of a relationship. I will grant that love is the concrete in the brick wall, but without bricks, the concrete is useless.

SHELLI: “I am willing to bet 99.9999% of cohabitating couples are getting it on in bed. I am not stupid! It is hard to abstain when you are living together.”

Of course they are having sex. Who said they weren’t? You insinuated that every cohabitating couple was getting it on as teenagers and had a baby at 15 (or some nonsense like that). I think the issue here is that you are having a difficult time separating the issue of fornication (in general) from loving couples that cohabitate before they get married.

SHELLI: “As Christians, we know that to have our prayers answered, God expects us to do our part as well. He isn’t going to budge if we don’t budge. That isn’t how He operates. He isn’t going to bless us with a job if we don’t go looking for one first.”

That’s the biggest load of bologna I’ve ever heard. Let me rephrase your paragraph so it makes more sense.

As a Christian I know that after I do all the work to get a new job that I will forsake my efforts and give all the credit to my imaginary friend in the sky. I do all the dirty work and get things done on my own, but I’m afraid to take ownership of my actions (good and bad) and so I give God credit for the good and blame Satan for the bad. It’s a win-win situation for me!

That is the more accurate way to say what you said.

SHELLI: “People that pray and simply sit back and wait for things to happen magically are just kidding themselves. They need psychological help.”

At least we agree on that point. You agreed with me the entire time and it took this long for you to admit it. Why didn’t you just come out right away and say that you agreed with me? I said in my article, and during our debate, that Christians that do nothing but pray to solve their relationship problems are accomplishing nothing. It is for this reason that Christians have one of the highest divorce rates among all religions. It is for this reason that the highest divorce rates in the United States is in the Bible Belt.

SHELLI: “I think I would know better about Christianity than you.”

I would disagree. You didn’t even know about the Age of Accountability. You didn’t know that babies go to Hell as Jesus commanded. You didn’t know the origin of the 66 cannon in the Bible. The only thing you know about Christianity is the touchy-feely stuff and you know nothing about the facts and history of the faith you proclaim.

SHELLI: “Now, if you don’t mind, this is Christmas time. Have some respect for us who are celebrating this Holy season with our family and friends. We don’t need a bunch of atheists running around protesting depictions of the Nativity in public places.”

Of course Atheists respect the rights of Christians to celebrate Christmas. We also respect the rights of Muslims to celebrate Ramadan, the Jews to celebrate Hanukkah, and the African-Americans to celebrate Kwanzaa. What we do not respect is when religion (any of them) violates the separation of church and state by putting Nativity scenes on government property.

Why do Christians feel the need to have the government support their religion? Is your faith and religion so weak that you need to government to prop it up?

Would you allow a Ramadan, Hanukkah, and Kwanzaa exhibit placed next to the Nativity? Would you allow an Atheist message placed next to it in the public square? Is your view truly about religious freedom or is it more accurately about religious proselytizing?

SHELLI: “The Pledge and the Ten Commandments display are just the beginning…..You atheists won’t be completely satisfied until there is absolutely no mention of the Creator in this society.”

Atheists do not have a problem with God in society. What Atheists have a problem with is government-endorsed God and religion. The government is supposed to represent all citizens, regardless of religious or non-religious affiliation. In order for Atheists to have the right to be Atheists, then every other religion must have that equal right. We are all equal under the eyes of the Constitution, and too many Christians forget that.

As I asked before, why do you feel the need to have the government prop up your religion? Is it not a violation of the Ten Commandments to make them icons? Is it not a blasphemy to make God secular in such trivial things as “ceremonial deism?” Maybe it’s just me, but Christians seem very hypocritical when it comes to God and Government.

SHELLI: “And another note to you….I am an award-winning poet, and I have always excelled in reading comprehension. I am fluent in Spanish, and I can understand other languages as well. […] I was a child prodigy.”

Remember that humility we were talking about?

SHELLI: “Also, stop throwing Old Testament scriptures in my face about stoning unruly children or women who have premarital sex. In your eyes, Christians are disobeying God if they do not adhere to these punishments. News flash! There were no Christians in that time period.”

Correct. They were called Israelites or Jews. However, Jesus said clearly in the New Testament that, “No law shall change until the coming of the Kingdom of God.”

Christians like to claim that the cross has removed them from the burden of the Old Testament, but that is not the case. The cross only absolved Christians of their sins. The old laws are to remain as they are until the Second Coming of Christ. That’s basic Christian theology that most Christians don’t get. Of course I will grant you that Jesus contradicted himself on this issue and also said that the “new commandments” were to love each other and God (paraphrased).

SHELLI: “Therefore, the “laws of men” of the Old Testament no longer apply. We have a new covenant with God.”

If that’s the true case then why even include books like Deuteronomy in the cannon? Would it not have been wise to only put the books that discussed stories and ancestry instead of the “laws of men?” Of course this does not resolve the issue of whether or not the Bible is the “Word of God.” If the Bible is the actual “Word of God” then you are blaspheming when you say that books like Deuteronomy are the “laws of man.”

SHELLI: “Why can’t you seem to grasp the concept of Christianity. If you really understood my faith, you would not be making references to old customs that were prevalent years and years before the birth of Christ.”

I understand exactly what you are saying. I understand the bogus theology behind it as well. You are spouting off the typical apologists tripe when it comes to resolving the issues of OT and NT contradictions. The fact remains that the NT says that Jesus told his followers that the old laws would not pass away or change until the Second Coming and the new Kingdom of God.

SHELLI: “As far as the Sabbath is concerned, there is no law of God that says it must be on a Saturday or a Sunday.”

Huh? The Ten Commandments are clear about the Sabbath. The Sabbath is on Saturday – not Sunday. Sunday (the day of the SUN (not son)) was chosen by Emperor Constantine to match the day they worshiped Sol Invictus (invincible Sun) under the religion of Mithraism. You are violating God’s laws if you worship on Sunday and work on Saturday. Of course under your argument the Ten Commandments are part of the NT and are no longer applicable, so this argument is moot as far as you are concerned.

SHELLI: “It can be any day of the week put aside for quiet time for yourself. We all deserve at least one day of rest per week.”

Please provide the Biblical support of that statement. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you can choose any day you want. The Bible says you have to rest and keep holy the SABBATH. The Sabbath is Saturday. It amazes me that you keep accusing me of not knowing your faith.

SHELLI: “The Ten Commandments are the laws of God, not of men….so don’t even try to tell me that I’m contradicting myself.”

You are contradicting yourself. How is the Bible the “word of God” and be the “laws of man?” If God inspired, dictated, or breathed the Bible then all of it is “God’s law.” But that’s okay, even Jesus couldn’t name all the Ten Commandments when he was asked and he invented a new one on the spot.

SHELLI: “I think God worries more about His children dying unsaved than whether we are consuming crabs at Red Lobster on a Sunday.”

To turn a question back on you: What if you’re wrong? Should I save you a seat in Hell?

 

Shelli Rebuttal #010:

NOTE: Shelli returned three emails for my last response. Shelli has said she is ending the discussion. Will this be the end of the Shelli “debate?” That remains to be seen.

Email #1″

Mr. Scott, I don’t appreciate people calling me arrogant. People ask what I do for a living, and I tell them. All of a sudden I am a braggart for answering their questions? I don’t even care to talk about my acting career when I am around my friends…..unless they ask me about it first. I usually prefer to hear about their lives, not boast about my occasionally boring life. You asked me about my life…..I answered you. I have to defend myself from rude people who call me a liar. And what is this Miss Millennia? All the pictures that are posted of me on the Internet were taken for fun by my best friend…not by professional photographers. (sic) I have never modeled professionally. I have only been paid for film acting. There are no modeling assignments on my resume. So it is okay for all of us to strut our stuff on the beach for the world to see but not on the Net? What is the difference? Am I supposed to dress like a nun every day??? I don’t drink, I don’t smoke, I don’t do drugs, or have sex. How much more conservative can a person get??? People have been calling me a prude my whole life. I didn’t even kiss a guy till I was 20! How can you know anything about me from just a few emails??? Get your facts straight. Remember that “mud in the face” comment that you made? I only wear makeup when I go out….which is almost never….only for work and errands. I do not party. I would much rather be around my animals than people….because they love unconditionally and do not judge you. Hmmmm…..sounds like a very humble life to me. I am certainly not out throwing myself in people’s faces. I went to see my first movie “Jersey Girl” the other day……and I went ALONE! I did not stand up in the middle of the theater and shout out, “HEY, I AM IN THIS MOVIE!” I sat in a corner by myself. How can you call me arrogant when I have NEVER deemed myself to be better than anyone??? If I thought I was better than everyone else, I would never have had eating disorders, depression, or any other problems that I have had. Those are symptoms of insecurity, not superiority. I have practically lived my whole life with an inferiority complex. Now I am finally doing the things in life that I love to do. I am feeling much more confident in myself….as long as I am serving the Lord, there is no arrogance in me. Again I say, get your facts straight. Atheists, such as yourself, only bring out the anger in me…..so I bid you farewell. You have my prayers for salvation. I know that I have a special place in Heaven waiting for me. GOD BLESS you.

P.S. As far as public “religious” displays….well, this is a democracy. This is a government run by the people. We have the right to freedom of religion. If the PEOPLE want to display the Ten Commandments wherever they please, they have the right to do it. If they want to recite the Pledge of Allegiance with “under God” in it, they have the right to do it. If non-believers choose not to do these things, they have that right as well. You Atheists are not forced to believe in the Lord or practice His ways…..so sit down, shut up, and let the huge majority of us that DO believe to worship in any way that we please. IT IS OUR RIGHT. Our government is NOT run by the Church. (Think the Church of England). What more do you want?

Email #2:

I also wanted to comment on your friends’ sex dilemma. First of all, you don’t get divorced because a d..k doesn’t fit a p…y. (Yes, we Christians have a sense of humor, believe it or not.) Where do you think a baby comes out? How is that woman gonna bear the pain of childbirth when she can’t even handle a d..k in her p…y?? The vagina is a muscle that needs to be worked out once she starts to have sex. It will EXPAND in time to accommodate the penis just like it EXPANDS to accommodate a newborn baby. Learn some science, people. The sizes of male and female genitalia have nothing to do with the success of a marriage! Again I say….if you are with the right person, you will be COMPATIBLE! There may be physical pain at first, but there is always pain whenever you start working out a muscle. Try doing aerobics for the first time! UGH! Fornication is unlawful sex between unmarried people, whether they are living together or not. Premarital sex is wrong, disgusting, unnecessary, and sinful. MY NUDITY AND MY CHASTITY IS A GIFT TO MY HUSBAND ALONE! Don’t ever expect THIS girl to be posing in Playboy or any other nonsense like that.

Email #3:

You made a comment that Jesus said the old laws still hold true till the Second Coming. Hmmm…..what laws??? Well, did He not say to those men who wanted to stone that woman taken in adultery, “He who is without sin be the first to cast a stone?” All those dumb men just walked away. Jesus then turned to the woman and said, “Go, and sin no more.” If that isn’t the true essence of forgiveness and unconditional love, I don’t know what is. Anyone who hears the word of the Lord and rejects it (such as you) is going to be separated from God for eternity. Little children or anyone else that has never gotten the chance to hear and understand the Word will go to Heaven. How can a merciful, compassionate Lord do any less for His children? It is not their fault that they were never given witness of His teachings. This is just common sense. Would a loving parent kill their child because they do not know the difference between right and wrong? Why would God do that then? God’s ways are not our ways. His understanding is not our understanding. I would much rather put my faith in a very real and present Holy Spirit (not an invisible man in the sky) than to trust some person who thinks that the whole universe is a random occurrence. You can’t trust anything that is random, Mr. Scott. I guess that means that your thought processes are all accidental. How can I trust or believe what you say then? You are a random accident in this universe. How can you not be worrying then whether or not the sun, the moon, or the stars are going to fall out of the sky? After all, they were created at random, right? How do you know all the earth’s species aren’t going to melt tomorrow? After all, they are all random occurrences. How can you say that science can be an absolute assurance for everything when random minds or whatever created it? That means science is all random, right? In a random universe, what exactly is right and wrong? Who is really right or wrong? If we are all accidents, how can any of us be sure? Are brains and bodies are all accidents. How do we know that our bodies are really working the right way? Or the wrong way? If a person tells me I have to look a certain way to get a particular job, how can I really trust that this random accident in the universe is correct? What if they are wrong? What if I am wrong? How do we really know? In a random universe, there are no assurances of anything. Why is love called love? Why is hate not called love? What is beauty, and what is not? Everything is so random, you know. Your family is a random occurrence. If they are gone tomorrow, how do you know for sure that you will find more people to love or to love you? From all your reasoning, I would think you would be having nervous breakdowns every minute of your life….the random accident called life. What exactly IS life anyways? What exactly IS a nervous breakdown? What isn’t one? Am I really here typing these sentences? After all, I was just thrown together by accident 29 years ago. Hell, it takes MUCH more faith to be an Atheist than to be a child of the Almighty God who sent me here to fulfill a purpose. Amen. HAPPY ATHEIST LIVING. I am done with these discussions. I have done my job as a witness of Christ for you. I am moving on now. You can take my information however you would like. After all, in your eyes, I am just a random occurrence…..of no real absolute importance.

Response to Shelli #010:

SHELLI: “All of a sudden I am a braggart for answering their questions?”

No, you are a braggart because you emphasized the glorious nature of Christian humility, and then went out of your way to brag about how wonderful you are at every chance you got. I’m simply pointing this out as a highlight of the hypocrisy that is Christianity. If you actually followed all the rules and guidelines in the Bible you would go insane.

SHELLI: “I have to defend myself from rude people who call me a liar.”

I don’t believe I called you a liar, but that I simply questioned your perception of the issue. Many of the things you have said sound far-fetched. When you speak of such things, you should at least be prepared to back those statements up and to not get offended when someone is suspicious of their legitimacy.

SHELLI: “And what is this Miss Millennia?”

You tell me. You are the one that participated in it. You went on-and-on about your humility and when I called you on posing in your bikini, you tried to pawn it off as a “picture that a friend took in fun.” Why is the picture of you in your bikini with blossoming bosoms on the web for all to see?

http://www.millenniamodelsearch.com/cgi-millenniamodelsearch/gallery?bio_8678 (the Millenia Model Search web page no longer exists)

SHELLI: “All the pictures that are posted of me on the Internet were taken for fun by my best friend…not by professional photographers. I have never modeled professionally.”

You’re missing the point. The whole gist of this go-around over your posing for pictures (regardless of who took them) and then posting those pictures on the Internet is to highlight the hypocrisy of your claim of moral high ground when it comes to such “womanly virtues” as humility. You have repeatedly talked about how God wants a woman to behave and what behavior is appropriate for a Christian woman. You have repeatedly reminded me of your “humility.” This is why I wanted to know how you reconciled your views of a Christian woman and humility with half-naked pictures of yourself online.

SHELLI: “So it is okay for all of us to strut our stuff on the beach for the world to see but not on the Net? What is the difference? Am I supposed to dress like a nun every day?”

No, you shouldn’t dress like a nun. There is no difference between wearing a bathing suit on Daytona Beach or at a web page – in both places you can be seen by the public, ogled by men, and drooled over by prepubescent boys. What makes this issue important for you is not the act itself, but the act based on your projected image of a “fine Christian woman.” All of this debate over your cleavage on the Internet stems from a simple question that I had, “How do you reconcile your views of a Christian woman with your actions?”

SHELLI: “How can you call me arrogant when I have NEVER deemed myself to be better than anyone?”

The claim of arrogance was based on your insistence that you were better than everyone else because you were a Christian woman. I called you on it, and now your in a defensive posture trying to prove to yourself that you’re not arrogant, you’re not religiously snobbish, and that you’re not a hypocrite when it comes to religious ideals and how you project yourself as a Christian woman.

Your arrogance is not an issue of public domain, as you would try to make it out to be. The arrogance we are addressing is your arrogance toward religious ideals. Your arrogance has you believe that your personal religious beliefs are better than others. Your arrogance has you believe that your personal religious morality is better than others (this is why I called you on it – especially your “Christian woman’s humility” that you kept referring to).

SHELLI: “Now I am finally doing the things in life that I love to do. I am feeling much more confident in myself….as long as I am serving the Lord, there is no arrogance in me.” (sic)

I’m glad you’re feeling better about yourself. There’s nothing wrong with that. The issue at stake here is your religious arrogance. There have been many things justified through “serving the Lord.” Your religious arrogance seems to be one of those things.

SHELLI: “As far as public “religious” displays….well, this is a democracy. This is a government run by the people.”

Did you not pay attention in American History class at Lenape High School? The United States of America is not a democracy – it is a republic. The very Pledge of Allegiance that you were earlier defending says, “and to the Republic, for which it stands.” Why is it so hard for people to get this?

So what is the difference between a Republic and a Democracy? In a Democracy, the majority rules without question – there are no rights for the minority. In a Republic, the majority can only rule is that rule does not violate or trample upon the rights of the minority.

Do you understand the difference?

SHELLI: “We have the right to freedom of religion. If the PEOPLE want to display the Ten Commandments wherever they please, they have the right to do it.”

It is our freedom of religion that demands that such displays stay out of government buildings. How can you have religious freedom if your government is promoting a specific religion? It’s all fine and dandy when your government is supporting your particular religion, but how would you feel if it supported a different one? Would you be equally enthusiastic over a display of Hindu laws in your capitol building? Would you be ecstatic about a morning prayer at your child’s school to the Goddess? Would you embrace your concept of religious freedom if the Muslims were allowed to build monuments in the county courthouse?

You are correct; if people want to display the Ten Commandments they have the right to. They can display the Ten Commandments anywhere they want except on government property. They can put 500 plaques in their yard, 100 on their car, 10 in their cubicle at work, 2 on each book cover at school, 5,000 in their home, and many more on public access property. But if they put just 1 on government property, property that represents all Americans, then they have violated the Constitution and prohibited the freedom of religion for all those that do not follow their religion.

Freedom of religion means freedom of religion for ALL – not just Christians.

SHELLI: “If non-believers choose not to do these things, they have that right as well.”

It’s hard to do this when the government is endorsing and promoting a specific religion. It’s hard to do this when Christians gang up on people that opt-out and ostracize them. My daughters don’t want to say the Pledge, but they do it anyway out of fear – they are scared of their Christian classmates. They have been teased, harassed, and ridiculed before by Christian children so they know from personal experience how well this “don’t say it if you don’t want to” line of bologna works. This is another version of Christian arrogance that we have talked about.

SHELLI: “You Atheists are not forced to believe in the Lord or practice His ways…..so sit down, shut up, and let the huge majority of us that DO believe to worship in any way that we please. (sic) IT IS OUR RIGHT.”

No one is stopping you from worshiping the way you want. What we are trying to do is ensure that you don’t worship where you are not supposed to – that you are not forcing worship on others. Worshiping in government buildings is inappropriate and violates the Constitution of the United States and the constitutions of every state in the nation.

SHELLI: “Our government is NOT run by the Church. (Think the Church of England). What more do you want?”

Our government might as well be run by the church the way some things are. Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and others make every effort to run the government. Jerry Falwell has admitted on national television that Bush has asked for his advice on policy. Doesn’t that scare you? Doesn’t it concern you that a Fundamentalist is giving advice on national policy to a born-again Christian president?

The president’s born-again beliefs come into play on every decision he makes. The reason this is worrisome is because born-again Christians believe Jesus is coming back and that Revelation will occur. Therefore, their foreign and domestic policy is guided by the idea that there will be an Armageddon, Rapture, and a Second Coming. Why bother worrying about our dependence on oil and helping reduce gas-guzzlers when Jesus is coming back? Why worry about destroying the environment when Jesus is coming back? Why worry about wars and death, when Jesus is coming back? You can start a war without worry, because if it is Armageddon, you were supposed to start it in the first place. The very idea of Armageddonomics in the White House and elsewhere concerns me and it should concern you.

As to what more do I want? I’d just like to see our representative government (meaning they represent all citizens, not just Christians) to follow Constitutional law. They swore an oath to uphold the Constitution of this land and they violate it any chance they get, especially when it comes to the Establishment Clause.

SHELLI: “First of all, you don’t get divorced because a d..k doesn’t fit a p…y. (Yes, we Christians have a sense of humor, believe it or not.) Where do you think a baby comes out? How is that woman gonna bear the pain of childbirth when she can’t even handle a d..k in her p…y??”

It’s okay to use the words penis and vagina instead of d—k and p—y here. When a woman starts her labor several things happen to help with the birth, which includes a dropping of the cervix, a new-gained elasticity in the labia majora and labia minora, as well as an extra dose of vaginal lubrication. The chemicals in the woman’s body allow her to give birth without ripping herself open (usually – rips can occur, especially with larger babies).

All of these natural “wideners” (if you will) do not occur during regular sexual intercourse. If a penis is too big for a woman’s vagina, they cannot have comfortable sexual intercourse. In those occasions where the penis is way too big, then intercourse is impossible without plastic surgery to widen the vagina or reduce the size of the penis (I don’t see anyone willing to volunteer for that).

The Kama Sutra discusses this because mankind has known this fact for a long time. When arranging marriages, the size of the penis and width/depth of the vagina were taken into consideration.

SHELLI: “The vagina is a muscle that needs to be worked out once she starts to have sex. It will EXPAND in time to accommodate the penis just like it EXPANDS to accommodate a newborn baby. Learn some science, people.”

I have learned some science – you are spouting off wives tales. The expansion of the vagina walls and muscles during childbirth is a hormonal induced reaction that is reactive to labor. This reaction does not occur during sexual intercourse. Is there some vaginal stretching during intercourse? Yes, there is. However, during periods of non-sexual activity, the vaginal walls will return to their normal state (given for variations or muscular damage within the vagina).

SHELLI: “The sizes of male and female genitalia have nothing to do with the success of a marriage! Again I say….if you are with the right person, you will be COMPATIBLE! There may be physical pain at first, but there is always pain whenever you start working out a muscle. Try doing aerobics for the first time!”

I’m amazed at your ignorance of the female body considering that you are a female. Of course you might know more about this if you understood why sex before marriage and cohabitation are important. The only way to keep the vagina stretched out to match an overly large penis is to have sexual intercourse every single day. Even then that does not eliminate the painful nature of the intercourse upon initial penetration and the first few thrusts, which stretch the vaginal walls.

No matter how much stretching occurs, there are many women that will not be able to accommodate certain penis sizes no matter how much stretching they do. To compare vaginal stretching to aerobics is asinine, at best.

If partners cannot engage in sexual intercourse because of size issues, then what’s the point of the marriage if it cannot be consummated and reproduction cannot take place? You can’t go forth and bare fruit if you can’t bare the pain.

SHELLI: “Fornication is unlawful sex between unmarried people, whether they are living together or not. Premarital sex is wrong, disgusting, unnecessary, and sinful.”

Fornication is only unlawful in your eyes and the misguided methods of ancient men that dominated women and refused them equality under the law. If you are so keen to follow those obscure rules of men (didn’t you chastise me earlier for quoting these “rules of men?”) then so be it. The same books where those “rules of men” come from that you told me don’t apply, comes the same guidelines on marriage and pre-marital sexual relations. Why are you so keen on adopting one set and disregarding another? Hypocrisy of Christianity – that’s why.

SHELLI: “Don’t ever expect THIS girl to be posing in Playboy or any other nonsense like that.”

I don’t expect you to pose for Playboy. You already posed for the Internet with full cleavage and lots of skin.

SHELLI: “You made a comment that Jesus said the old laws still hold true till the Second Coming. Hmmm…..what laws??? (sic) The stoning of adulterous women for example? Well, did He not say to those men who wanted to stone that woman taken in adultery, “He who is without sin be the first to cast a stone?””

Yes, Jesus contradicted himself a lot in the New Testament. He says several times that the old laws shall not pass until the coming of the Kingdom (most Christians feel this means the Second Coming). He also says a few times that he has brought a new covenant that replaces the old laws. He tells one person to follow the law, and then tells others not to follow the law.

However, the incident with the woman was not about law-breaking or following laws, but about sin itself – it was supposed to be a lesson about how all of mankind is sinful and none are sin free. You know, it’s called a metaphor.

SHELLI: “Anyone who hears the word of the Lord and rejects it (such as you) is going to be separated from God for eternity.”

If it turns out that your Bible-God is real, then I won’t mind being separated from him. The things he has done make him unworthy of worship and idolatry. The Bible-God deserves nothing more than a cold shoulder, and that’s being too nice. If I go to Hell I’ll be in great company and loving every minute of it. As an “evil Atheist” I’m sure I’ll be part of the staff. Shall I save you a seat?

SHELLI: “Little children or anyone else that has never gotten the chance to hear and understand the Word will go to Heaven. How can a merciful, compassionate Lord do any less for His children? It is not their fault that they were never given witness of His teachings. This is just common sense.”

How can you say that? You have absolutely no biblical basis whatsoever to say that. The Bible is clear that if you do not hear about Jesus, even children, then you are going to Hell. The only way into Heaven is through knowing Jesus – no exceptions, not even for children. We’ve already discussed the verse that confirms this (remember).

You (nor anyone else for that matter) have ever supported the “age of accountability” biblically. The “age of accountability” was invented by Christians to get over the fact that babies go to Hell – that their father-God is an evil tyrant who loves to send babies and children to a lake of fire just because their mommy and daddy never told them about Jesus or they couldn’t talk or speak the language to learn about it.

SHELLI: “Would a loving parent kill their child because they do not know the difference between right and wrong?”

You are the one that should be asking that question. Your Bible-God has killed his children many times for that reason. Do you remember the story in the Old Testament when God sent bears to maul children because they teased a bald man? Why did your Bible-God kill those children for the simple act of teasing? How can you possibly compare your hateful Bible-God to a loving parent?

SHELLI: “Why would God do that then? God’s ways are not our ways.”

You’re right. Our ways are more humane, more loving, and more nurturing. The few times I hear about parents killing their children I always hear, “God told me to do it.”

SHELLI: “You can’t trust anything that is random, Mr. Scott. I guess that means that your thought processes are all accidental.”

Your scientific ignorance is showing again. Randomness is not continuous. Physical laws constrain the randomness and cause what we call “patterns,” such as the orbit of planets, the firing of neurons, the rotation of a planet on an axis, etc.

SHELLI: “You are a random accident in this universe. How can you not be worrying then whether or not the sun, the moon, or the stars are going to fall out of the sky? After all, they were created at random, right? How do you know all the earth’s species aren’t going to melt tomorrow?”

You sure do know how to build a straw man, that’s for sure. I’m questioning whether or not I should even bother answering this one because it’s so ridiculous. Okay, I’ve decided – it’s too ridiculous to warrant a response.

SHELLI: “How can you say that science can be an absolute assurance for everything when random minds or whatever created it? That means science is all random, right?”

As I stated above, through the randomness of the universe, comes non-random physical and natural laws. Science is the pursuit of understanding these laws. Science is based on observation, and those observations must be consistent to warrant a theory. Science could not predict the steady nature of a planetary orbit if it were random. Science could not tell you that the Sun will rise tomorrow at a specific time if it were random.

SHELLI: “In a random universe, what exactly is right and wrong? Who is really right or wrong?”

We know that morality is subjective, but there are key moral issues that almost every society has picked up on and followed. These basic moral issues revolve around the survival of the species. What is right and wrong can be narrowed down to the survival of the individual and the survival of the species.

SHELLI: “If a person tells me I have to look a certain way to get a particular job, how can I really trust that this random accident in the universe is correct? What if they are wrong? What if I am wrong?”

If they are the ones that control whether or not you get that job, then they are right and you are wrong. This is simple situational ethics. You’re really stretching this “argument” to a radical extreme and it makes no sense whatsoever. Your straw man is burning to ashes.

SHELLI: “From all your reasoning, I would think you would be having nervous breakdowns every minute of your life….the random accident called life.” (sic)

As I said, your argument is ridiculous. We can avoid a nervous breakdown because of the non-random nature of the physical and natural laws. We know the sun will rise in the morning at a specific time because it is predictable, non-random. Is it possible that it won’t? Sure – but we’ll be dead before we ever know the Earth stopped spinning causing the sun to not rise.

SHELLI: “Hell, it takes MUCH more faith to be an Atheist than to be a child of the Almighty God who sent me here to fulfill a purpose.”

Of course you think that – you’re scientifically ignorant. You are a living and shining example of “ignorance is bliss.” You think everything is random, when it is the non-random that allows existence. You believe in invisible beings. If you need this to make you happy, then more power to you. I prefer to understand the world around me and enjoy it for what it is – a natural environment.

SHELLI: “I have done my job as a witness of Christ for you.”

If Jesus were real he’d probably be sitting in his executive office saying to you, “You’re fired!”

SHELLI: “After all, in your eyes, I am just a random occurrence…..of no real absolute importance.” (sic)

You’ve been very important. You have provided me with hours of entertainment and laughter.

NOTE: Shelli sent me a final email that was short and curt. This debate has been terminated by Shelli. Too bad – we were having lots of fun.

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