Debate 017: Sarah and Blair debate prophecy

Sarah’s original email was sent to me as a “warning” of end times based on some prophecies and modern prophets. My first reaction to her opening paragraphs were of great interest as I was looking forward to a good debate. Then I ran across the prophecy part and her belief in modern prophets (the Christian word for psychics). My original response was severely facetious and, admittedly, rather insulting. When she responded back I was surprised and decided to give her statements more attention.

 

Sarah Rebuttal #001:

I am Christian that decided to visit your site to make you aware of the future. First of all I do not understand any of your reasoning in why you don’t believe in God. Scientist have developed three main thesis’ on how the universe was formed. It is either eternal, the universe created itself out of nothing, or it was created by a supreme being. Modern science today denies the eternal existence of the universe, they discovered that it has a definite beginning. The other theory which states that the universe was created out of nothing has also been disproved, it clearly contradicts the law of thermodynamics and many other laws that have been created. Therefore the universe was obviously not created out of nothing. The only remaining alternative is that the universe was created by something, or someone.

In the past, atheists suggested that the mind is nothing more than a function of the brain, which is matter; thus the mind and the brain are the same, and matter is all that exists. However, that viewpoint is no longer intellectually credible, as a result of the scientific experiments of British neurologist, Sir John Eccles. Dr. Eccles won the Nobel Prize for distinguishing that the mind is more than merely physical. He showed that the supplementary motor area of the brain may be fired by mere intention to do something, without the motor cortex of the brain (which controls muscle movements) operating. In effect, the mind is to the brain what a librarian is to a library.

From evidence such as that presented here, Robert Jastrow (an agnostic, by his own admission) was forced to conclude: “That there are what I or anyone would call supernatural forces at work is now, I think, a scientifically proven fact” (1982, p. 18). The evidence speaks clearly regarding the existence of a non-contingent, eternal, self-existent Mind that created this Universe and everything within it.

Other things that you may not ever be able to explain are the prophecy’s. There were 55 prophecy’s that were made of the coming messiah. Jesus Christ fulfilled every single one of those. According to a group of mathematicians. The odds of this happening is 1 out of every 1 x 10 to the 56th power. I don’t know about you but it didn’t seem like it happened by chance. The bible code that has been discovered also has similar odds. These are a group of words that are found throughout the bible that have predicted many events throughout time. Many of the odds of these phrases appearing in the bible “by chance” is 1 out of a billion times a trillion.

There is so much more that I could say that would prove God exists, as I said I wrote this e-mail to make you aware of the future.

As almost the whole world knows, on September 11th 2001 we were attacked by a group of terrorists. This along with many other prophecy’s were given to our people from the lord in order to warn America. America is going through a great judgment period along with the rest of the world. Our stock market will soon crash and we will also be attacked by Russia and China initiating the beginning of World War III. Our country will be filled with plagues (anthrax, small pox), our water supply will be contaminated, and famine will sweep across America. Soon more terrorist attacks will be filling the country. The reason this is going to happen is not because God doesn’t love us, but it is because he does. He wants us to turn to him, once you do you will be safe from this judgment that will reach the United States. If you still do not believe once you see these things come to pass ask Jesus Christ into your heart and you will be guaranteed eternal life. Trust me it is very strange but I used to be just like you, doubting that any higher power exists. But now I know for a fact he absolutely does, there is just too much evidence in the world to deny it. All of your theories can be refuted, every single one of them. A man once was dying and the hospital nurse was trying to revive him, after a couple times he came back he screamed “Bring me back I was just in hell!” Please take this warning, is it worth giving up eternal life just because you want to stick with “your principles?”

I do not believe it is worth it, if you would like more information about the prophecy’s and/or more proof on the existence of God I will gladly give it to you. After I truly discovered the truth I was thinking to myself how selfish a lot of my friends were from keeping this from me and other people. They had the security of eternal life if they died while I sat there still trying to figure out if there still was a supreme being. I knew I had to share it now that I found out the truth and decided to go to an atheist website and came to yours.

If you still doubt God please try praying and the lord will send you fulfillment so that you will find the truth.

If you do not believe prayer works, scientific studies have proven that prayer in fact does work. If you pray in the name of Jesus Christ you will get whatever you ask for, however God will not tend to your desires such as money, leisure, women or men, he knows what’s best for you but will always provide you with what you need. If you would like more information about the prophecy’s and/or more proof on the existence of God I will gladly give it to you, thank you for taking the time to read this.

 

Response to Sarah #001:

NOTE: This is a reminder that I was really insulting in my initial response. Ready beware…

For a minute there I though we were going to have an intellectual discussion about cosmology and neurology. I was interested and ready to engage in a lively and intellectual discussion about those issues.

Then in paragraph four you strayed from intelligent to unintelligible.

SARAH: “…on September 11th 2001 we were attacked by a group of terrorists. This along with many other prophecy’s [sic] were given to our people from the lord in order to warn America.”

Where were the attacks of 9/11 prophesied at?

SARAH: “Our stock market will soon crash and we will also be attacked by Russia and China initiating the beginning of World War III.”

Where is this prophesied in the Bible? Please provide the exact scriptural reference that says “the stock market will crash” and where it says “Russia and China will attack the United States”. Also provide any reference to scripture in the Bible that clearly says “World War III”. Also, does this so-called prophesy have any dates or are we all to guess?

SARAH: “Our country will be filled with plagues (anthrax, small pox), our water supply will be contaminated, and famine will sweep across America. Soon more terrorist attacks will be filling the country.”

Again, please provide the exact scripture that says “plagues of anthrax and smallpox, contaminated water and famine will sweep across America”. Does your prophecy provide a list of places that will be hit by terrorists or dates the terrorists will attack? Or is it so vague that anyone can find something to fit it? Don’t give me vague statements about the future – really give me a prophecy that will convince me – give me dates, names and places.

SARAH: “He wants us to turn to him, once you do you will be safe from this judgment that will reach the United States.”

Let me get this straight. God loves me, so he’s going to torture me to force me to love him back? Do you love your children? Would you torture them and force them to love you back? Would you purposely make your children sick, burn them, kill them or otherwise make them suffer in order to force them to “turn to you”? Any god that would purposely torture his creation in order to force them to love him is not worthy of any love, much less worship. A parent that did that would be locked away in prison for life. Your version of god is a sick, twisted and perverted belief.

SARAH: “Please take this warning, is it worth giving up eternal life just because you want to stick with “your principles?””

Is it worth not believing in Allah and giving up eternal life? Let’s face it; the one true god is Allah – not Jesus. There were 600-some-odd Christians on board the airplanes and many more in the Twin Towers and Pentagon. All of them prayed to be saved and their prayers went unanswered. There were 19 Muslims onboard the planes that were all praying to Allah to successfully complete their mission.

Whose prayers were answered? Not the Christians – because the Christian god is just pretend. The Muslim prayers were answered. Allah is risen! Repent infidels and come to Allah before he smites thee for worshiping the pagan Christ.

SARAH: “I do not believe it is worth it, if you would like more information about the prophecy’s [sic] and/or more proof on the existence of God I will gladly give it to you.”

Yes, please provide the following information:

  1. Source of these so-called prophecies.
  2. List of all events that are forthcoming.
  3. List of all the dates for said events.
  4. List of all the places where said events are to take place.
  5. List of all the names of key players in said events.
  6. The comic book character you most closely identify with.
  7. Is it possible to read the Bible when doing it doggie style?
  8. A list of all pharmaceutical (prescribed and non-prescribed) drugs that you are currently taking.
  9. The police file or other documentation of the mental abuse that you suffered as a child.

That should do it for now.

SARAH: “If you still doubt God please try praying and the lord will send you fulfillment so that you will find the truth.”

What is it with born-again Christians and this line of horsesh*t? Do you think that atheists were never Christians before or Muslims or Hindus? Do you think we’ve never prayed before? Do you think we’ve never read the Bible before?

God is just pretend. He’s the adult version of Santa Claus. Take a Prozac and call me in the morning when you’re not so delusional and having hallucinations about the end of the world.

SARAH: “…thank you for taking the time to read this.”

You’re not welcome. That was the biggest load of bullsh*t I’ve ever read in my life. Whatever drugs you are taking – throw them away. Whoever brainwashed you with this load of sh*t – slap them in the face. Wake up to reality before these hallucinations take you in so far that you can’t get out. See a psychologist before it’s too late. I mean this with all sincerity.

Although I guess I should thank you for sending it to me – I needed a good laugh today and your email provided it. I’ll be sure to send it to my friends so we can all laugh at you.

Pathetic doesn’t even begin to describe it…

 

Sarah Rebuttal #002:

I just wanted to say that I was only warning you, I told you these so when you see them come to pass then you will know that God does exist.

If you would like to still have an “intellectual conversation” about cosmology and neurology I would like to hear your theories on how the universe was created. If you must know, those were prophesied by many prophets, it does not clearly say it in the bible but if you wish then I will show you where in Revelations it predicts events much like it. I do not mind if you mock me, go ahead and have a good laugh. I did misjudge you however, i know now that you have probably prayed and might have been a religion before. What religion were you before it if you ever were one? I understand that you think I’m pathetic I probably would have found that letter extremely pathetic if I ready it a year ago.

I have a question though, why do you say that the one true god is allah? I thought you did not believe in a god. Isn’t it hypocritical to say that a god is not worth worshiping if he would punish his creation then say allah will “smite” me for worshiping Christ? It seems like three different people wrote this letter.

 

Response to Sarah #002:

We cannot have an intellectual conversation because of your stance on prophecy. I will ask you the same questions. When you can answer them honestly, including intellectual honesty, then perhaps we can continue with other topics.

SARAH: “…on September 11th 2001 we were attacked by a group of terrorists. This along with many other prophecy’s [sic] were given to our people from the lord in order to warn America.”

Where were the attacks of 9/11 prophesied at?

SARAH: “Our stock market will soon crash and we will also be attacked by Russia and China initiating the beginning of World War III.”

Where is this prophesied in the Bible? Please provide the exact scriptural reference that says “the stock market will crash” and where it says “Russia and China will attack the United States”. Also provide any reference to scripture in the Bible that clearly says “World War III”. Also, does this so-called prophesy have any dates or are we all to guess?

SARAH: “Our country will be filled with plagues (anthrax, small pox), our water supply will be contaminated, and famine will sweep across America. Soon more terrorist attacks will be filling the country.”

Again, please provide the exact scripture that says “plagues of anthrax and smallpox, contaminated water and famine will sweep across America”. Does your prophecy provide a list of places that will be hit by terrorists or dates the terrorists will attack? Or is it so vague that anyone can find something to fit it? Don’t give me vague statements about the future – really give me a prophecy that will convince me – give me dates, names and places.

SARAH: “He wants us to turn to him, once you do you will be safe from this judgment that will reach the United States.”

Let me get this straight. God loves me, so he’s going to torture me to force me to love him back? Do you love your children? Would you torture them and force them to love you back? Would you purposely make your children sick, burn them, kill them or otherwise make them suffer in order to force them to “turn to you”? Any god that would purposely torture his creation in order to force them to love him is not worthy of any love, much less worship. A parent that did that would be locked away in prison for life. Your version of god is a sick, twisted and perverted belief.

SARAH: “I do not believe it is worth it, if you would like more information about the prophecy’s [sic] and/or more proof on the existence of God I will gladly give it to you.”

Yes, please provide the following information:

  1. Source of these so-called prophecies.
  2. List of all events that are forthcoming.
  3. List of all the dates for said events.
  4. List of all the places where said events are to take place.
  5. List of all the names of key players in said events.

The reference to Allah was facetious. I’m an atheist – not a Muslim. Let me put it here again so you can re-read it and hopefully understand what I was trying to say:

SARAH: “Please take this warning, is it worth giving up eternal life just because you want to stick with “your principles?””

Is it worth not believing in Allah and giving up eternal life? Let’s face it; the one true god is Allah – not Jesus. There were 600-some-odd Christians on board the airplanes and many more in the Twin Towers and Pentagon. All of them prayed to be saved and their prayers went unanswered. There were 19 Muslims onboard the planes that were all praying to Allah to successfully complete their mission.

Whose prayers were answered? Not the Christians – because the Christian god is just pretend. The Muslim prayers were answered. Allah is risen! Repent infidels and come to Allah before he smites thee for worshiping the pagan Christ.

 

Sarah Rebuttal #003:

Alright I admit that I was being a little out of perspective for writing these prophecies. I can understand why you would be a little annoyed by them considering the fact that you don’t believe in god and that the bible doesn’t even specifically predict these prophecies.

Since you are very familiar with the bible you know that in revelations it states that there will be famine, war, plagues and so on. I don’t believe I need to point these versus out because they are very easy to find. What prophecies I am telling you about are the one’s that are predicted by many prophets that the lord has given through visions and dreams. If you would like to look at the website here it is. You have to download adobe acrobat reader in order to read them. http://www.telusplanet.net/public/tsgibson/bksart.html

Please remember that god does not give specific dates of certain events, he only wishes to warn us. It even states in the bible in Mark 13:32-33 But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but the father alone. Take heed, keep on alert; for you do not know when the appoint time is. I am not wishing to give you these prophecies just to make you afraid and turn to him. Although I take comfort in the lord protecting me I have found something very disturbing in one of these prophecies. A man that had predicted the falling of the World Trade Centers has also predicted that a nucleur attack will take place in an American city. The whole city will be annihilated and because of this the U.S. will become almost like a third world country. When I read this I was thinking it was going to be city such as Chicago or New York City, but the city he stated was Phoenix,Arizona. I live about 20 minutes away from Phoenix. Now I cannot say for sure and believe me I do not think that every single prophecy that is told by the prophets will take place. However I do believe many of them will happen, and also have already occurred.

When I saw what you wrote about Allah I was very confused, however I finally came to the conclusion that you were in fact being facetious. As for you wondering about why god would hurt his children in these judgements when he is supposed to be a loving god? I believe that god is not the one doing these things to us, he gave us free will so that we may make our own decisions. We were the one’s that chose to hate and murder, not God. The only thing God has done is taken is hand of protection away from our country because we chose to turn away from him (as with many other nations in the world).

I know you think I’m probably not capable of having an intellectual conversation because of my stance on these prophecies, however I am not the idiot you may think. I have answered with my honest opinion. I must admit I have much more respect for you for writing back with a more sincere reply. I have read what many so called “Christians” have done to you. I would like you to know that many Christians (including I) in no way support these acts of hatred.

 

Response to Sarah #003:

SARAH: “I can understand why you would be a little annoyed by them considering the fact that you don’t believe in god and that the bible doesn’t even specifically predict these prophecies.”

I wasn’t annoyed by the “prophecies”. The simple fact remains that none of the so-called prophecies are actually such. None of them are specific enough to qualify as a prophecy. They are vague and many of them are throwbacks. What I mean by a throwback is that when someone is writing in the future, they have the ability to go back into previous text and find items that they can make fit current events or recently past events that they are writing about.

A good example of this is Nostradamus. Nostradamus’ writings are so vague that no one can say with any certainty that one relates to one event or another. What happens is that as each person goes through them, they find the individual quatrains that they think fit a certain era or event. It is not uncommon to find a single quatrain attributed to several events.

This is the problem that is faced with the NT. The writers at the time knew of the so-called prophecies and they were forced to either make up events to fit them or find vague references that would fit actual events. Even if you read different apologetic books, each apologist attributes different events to different references in the OT. Even Biblical apologists are faced with the same dilemma that followers of Nostradamus are.

You have to consider that the writers of the NT, all five gospels (don’t forget about Thomas), knew of the OT references when they were writing. Why do you think there are so many discrepancies and contradictions in the NT? Each of them wrote with their own agenda and their own nuances and thoughts on the OT references. Why do some of the NT writers not mention events? How many of the gospels actually mention the birth of Jesus and specifically where he was born? Of the ones that do finally mention it, which ones actually agree with each other?

You would think that the birth of the Messiah was a significant enough event to warrant mention in all of the gospels, especially since it was supposed to fulfill some vague prophecy from the OT. Yet not all of them mention it. When it is first mentioned, it is the wrong city. The next gospel then corrects that “mistake” and places the birth in the city that actually matches the vague OT prophecy. Three strikes you’re out – and the NT writers struck out.

There’s a reason that the Jews rejected Jesus: he didn’t fulfill the prophecies. This is why a “Second Coming” was necessary for the NT writers to invent, which of course meant they had to invent a method for the “Second Coming”, which is the resurrection. The Messiah was supposed to come with swords blazing and free the Jews from Roman oppression. The Messiah was supposed be “the sword of G-d” that would help the Jews revolt against the Romans. There were many other prophecies that the Jews considered not to be fulfilled.

SARAH: “Since you are very familiar with the bible you know that in revelations it states that there will be famine, war, plagues and so on. I don’t believe I need to point these versus out because they are very easy to find.”

Yes, there are references to such events. But they are all vague and provide no data or dates. Also, if you consider the Jewish/Aramaic use of numerology at the time, the book of Revelation has nothing to do with the “Second Coming” of Jesus, but of Nero. The numbers 666 are the numerological translation for Emperor Nero. The Jews were scared to death that he would come back. Any good Biblical scholar will tell you that, especially a Jewish scholar that knows the use of numerology in sacred texts, such as Revelation and the Torah.

Perhaps you can explain the Biblical statement, “Know that a generation shall not pass before the Kingdom of God is established” (variations thereof depending on translation used)? Jesus was telling the disciples that they would see the “Kingdom of God” in their lifetime; the “Second Coming” would be before they die. They all thought it was going to happen soon. When it didn’t happen it became necessary in a later gospel to say, “No one but the Father shall know the time and place”.

SARAH: “What prophecies I am telling you about are the one’s that are predicted by many prophets that the lord has given through visions and dreams. If you would like to look at the website here it is. You have to download adobe acrobat reader in order to read them.http://www.telusplanet.net/public/tsgibson/bksart.html

I didn’t have the opportunity to view the “visions and dreams” of prophets. What I can tell you, though, is that anyone can say they received a vision from God. Visions of Armageddon are not prophetic, they are natural nightmares. We all dream about the end of the world, but that doesn’t make us prophets. Where is the proof of their so-called visions? Do you not require them to prove that they are a vessel of God before accepting their visions? Why do you accept their statements so arbitrarily without asking if they are authentic or imposters?

SARAH: “Please remember that god does not give specific dates of certain events, he only wishes to warn us.”

What’s the point, then? Why bother to warn us at all if there is no timeframe? If you knew exactly when and where your kids were going to be killed, wouldn’t you tell them when and where and how to avoid it? Or would you just tell them that at some point in the next fifty years they are going to die? Would you be vague with the ones that you loved?

SARAH: “It even states in the bible in Mark 13:32-33 But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but the father alone.”

I’ve already addressed that issue, haven’t I? That was added in order to account for the misinformation provided in an earlier gospel about a generation not passing before the Kingdom of God was established on Earth. It was the earliest form of apologetics – only they forgot to change the original. Modern apologists are still trying to explain that one without admitting that the Bible is contradictory.

SARAH: “I am not wishing to give you these prophecies just to make you afraid and turn to him.”

You wouldn’t be able to make me “turn to him” out of fear. After all, any deity that says he loves you and then threatens to burn you for eternity in a lake of fire unless you worship him is not worthy of worship in the first place. Would you worship a King that threatened to kill you if you didn’t worship him? What makes your God impervious to such?

SARAH: “A man that had predicted the falling of the World Trade Centers has also predicted that a nucleur [sic] attack will take place in an American city.”

Please give me the exact statements from this so-called prophet that predicted the demise of the World Trade Center of 9/11 at 8AM in the morning. I also need to know the exact date and time that this prediction was made. Can this man provide that information or did you find out about it after the fact?

SARAH: “The whole city will be annihilated and because of this the U.S. will become almost like a third world country.”

This is highly unlikely, even if the prophecy is true. Certainly a nuclear explosion in a major economic area such as Los Angeles would have a devastating effect, but not in a way to make us a third world country.

SARAH: “When I read this I was thinking it was going to be city such as Chicago or New York City, but the city he stated was Phoenix, Arizona.”

There is absolutely no way that a city-wide destruction of Phoenix would turn the US into a third world country. Phoenix is big, but in the overall scheme of things, it is a drop in the bucket economically as far as the US goes. We’d see similar effects after 9/11 where the economy dives for a bit and then starts to recover. This would be no different than a major 8.0 earthquake in a major city.

SARAH: “As for you wondering about why god would hurt his children in these judgements when he is supposed to be a loving god? I believe that god is not the one doing these things to us, he gave us free will so that we may make our own decisions.”

So you admit that God is not omni-benevolent and omnipotent?

SARAH: “We were the one’s that chose to hate and murder, not God.”

Perhaps you should read the OT again. God is the perpetrator of mass genocide, even on a global scale (Noachian flood). Murder is murder, regardless of any reasoning some deity has to do it.

SARAH: “The only thing God has done is taken is hand of protection away from our country because we chose to turn away from him (as with many other nations in the world).”

Do you not see your contradiction here? You say that God is not “doing it”, but at the same time you say that he let it happen by “removing his hand of protection”. Would you allow your child to be killed if you knew about it ahead of time just because your child was a little disobedient? Are your children, whom you supposedly love, worth the sacrifice just because of disobedience? If God let it happen then he did do it. If God removed protection from the intended target, then he is guilty of murder through negligence and association. If God knew the terrorists were going to kill 3,000 plus people and let it happen, then he is guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.

SARAH: “I know you think I’m probably not capable of having an intellectual conversation because of my stance on these prophecies, however I am not the idiot you may think.”

I don’t think you’re an idiot. What I do think is that you have been improperly misled into believing a bunch of bologna. You have been misled either because you needed to believe it or because you are ignorant of the information out there debunking such nonsense.

SARAH: “I have read what many so called “Christians” have done to you. I would like you to know that many Christians (including I) in no way support these acts of hatred.”

Thank you.

 

Sarah Rebuttal #004:

BLAIR: “They are vague and many of them are throwbacks. What I mean by a throwback is that when someone is writing in the future, they have the ability to go back into previous text and find items that they can make fit current events or recently past events that they are writing about.”

The NT text has already created many theories on what the actual end times entail as described in the bible. The decisions based on their research has been almost unanimous among biblical scholars today. I believe only time will tell as to if these prophecies will be fulfilled including the new world order, a world wide religion that will be imposed on most of mankind and so on.

BLAIR: “There is absolutely no way that a city-wide destruction of Phoenix would turn the US into a third world country. Phoenix is big, but in the overall scheme of things, it is a drop in the bucket economically as far as the US goes.”

I very much hope that you are right about this.

BLAIR: “Do you not see your contradiction here? You say that God is not “doing it”, but at the same time you say that he let it happen by “removing his hand of protection”. Would you allow your child to be killed if you knew about it ahead of time just because your child was a little disobedient?”

I cannot pretend I know everything about god therefore I cannot answer this question very effectively.

I believe I could make an effective argument towards Christianity but I would rather like to revert the debate back to cosmology and other subjects. I have deleted my proceeding e-mails so I do not remember the subjects I brought up with you in my first e-mail. If you would like to bring up any new subjects or even cease this debate since you are very busy I will not be offended.

NOTE: I have not yet responded to Sarah. I wasn’t going to respond because her last email was not worth any response. However, her call to go back to her original email before the “sidetrack” of prophecy may be worth it. I’m still considering…

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